TexasCHLforum.com

Your best shot is to wait for them to be right next to you so you do not miss and start a shootout in a crowded location.

I like that, Austin, don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes. My first question about this incident is 'How long did this take and where in the world were the cops?!' Robbing that many people had to take 15 - 20 minutes minimum, maybe longer.

These guys were either very stupid or had some real brass. This is Texas - what are the chances that among that many people there wasn't at least one CHL or off-duty cop? Maybe there was one or more there, but had the same issues we're discussing, and didn't get a clear opportunity to shoot.

If they've presented firearms and announced their intent to rob everyone, the good guy with a concealed handgun still has the element of surprise. I assure you, my pistol would be drawn and cocked, with my thumb on the safety, but still concealed. And as others have pointed out, my main concern would be the safety of others, and maybe I would never get a clear field of fire. Perhaps the best opportunity would be when they're close, but not too close. Maybe when they get to a nearby table and are attending to those victims. Or like the Boston Legal scene, when they get to my table, hand over my watch, cell phone, wallet, &c., and then each round of ammo, one at a time (but just the bullets - if they want the casings, they can pick it up themselves). But unlike Shatner, shoot Center of Mass (CoM) rather than the perpetrators' feet.

One of the things I do at the range is practice engaging multiple targets in quick succession, as well as moving to make it harder for them to shoot me. One method I've considered is a single, well-aimed (maybe head) shot at the first target (taking advantage of surprise), two quick shots CoM at the second, and then re-engagement of the first CoM. Continue the sequence until the threat is neutralized. Just a thought, and I welcome any comments, criticisms, or suggestions.

It doesn't hurt to run through this situation and think about what we would do, so if we ever find ourselves in such a fix, we'll be a little more prepared. It's part of responsibly carrying a firearm - being prepared to use it, or not, and knowing the difference, when the situation presents itself.

E10 wrote:I like that, Austin, don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes. My first question about this incident is 'How long did this take and where in the world were the cops?!' Robbing that many people had to take 15 - 20 minutes minimum, maybe longer.

These guys were either very stupid or had some real brass. This is Texas - what are the chances that among that many people there wasn't at least one CHL or off-duty cop? Maybe there was one or more there, but had the same issues we're discussing, and didn't get a clear opportunity to shoot.

If they've presented firearms and announced their intent to rob everyone, the good guy with a concealed handgun still has the element of surprise. I assure you, my pistol would be drawn and cocked, with my thumb on the safety, but still concealed. And as others have pointed out, my main concern would be the safety of others, and maybe I would never get a clear field of fire. Perhaps the best opportunity would be when they're close, but not too close. Maybe when they get to a nearby table and are attending to those victims. Or like the Boston Legal scene, when they get to my table, hand over my watch, cell phone, wallet, &c., and then each round of ammo, one at a time (but just the bullets - if they want the casings, they can pick it up themselves). But unlike Shatner, shoot Center of Mass (CoM) rather than the perpetrators' feet.

One of the things I do at the range is practice engaging multiple targets in quick succession, as well as moving to make it harder for them to shoot me. One method I've considered is a single, well-aimed (maybe head) shot at the first target (taking advantage of surprise), two quick shots CoM at the second, and then re-engagement of the first CoM. Continue the sequence until the threat is neutralized. Just a thought, and I welcome any comments, criticisms, or suggestions.

It doesn't hurt to run through this situation and think about what we would do, so if we ever find ourselves in such a fix, we'll be a little more prepared. It's part of responsibly carrying a firearm - being prepared to use it, or not, and knowing the difference, when the situation presents itself.

I know a lot of folks practice various engagement scenarios, can punch the center of a target out at 15 yards, etc., but until you are actually in a real life scenario, you don't know how adrenaline, fright, people screaming, etc. is going to affect you. I can guarantee you will NOT be able to handle the situation like you do shooting IDPA or at the range running your scenarios. It just won't happen. In the two pull the trigger situations I have been in, I can tell you the adrenaline was doing funny things. A the distance I was at on both (>10 yds), I could have hit the individual, but would not guarantee it would have been 100% COM. Both of these ended guys ended up being shot by another officer who had a better angle (no one behind the suspect) and was closer.

In this situation, I think I would be turning over my stuff to the guys and unless the situation turned to where they were DEFINITELY going to shoot, then the best bet is to let them go and not start the lead flying. The chances of hitting something pother than the intended targets are just too great.

Keith B wrote:In this situation, I think I would be turning over my stuff to the guys and unless the situation turned to where they were DEFINITELY going to shoot, then the best bet is to let them go and not start the lead flying.

Any tips for those of us who can't hear the BG's finger muscles tighten on the trigger, then draw and fire before his hammer drops?

If you keep trying to talk yourself out of doing anything, the first indication you're going to have that it has gotten to that point is when an innocent victim gets shot.

Aggie_engr wrote: I bet just a shot in their direction would be enough to run them off?

I'm not willing to make that bet with my life.

However, even if in the unlikely situation that you got a couple of clean shots off, stopped the threats, and all the innocents made it out alive............ I'm sure some low-life would still sue you for "mental anguish".

1. They haven't seen my cellphone. NO ONE WOULD WANT MY BRICK OF A CELL PHONE.
2. Thats the risk and the reason for CHLs. I'm likely there with either my mom or my wife/kids. If we can't easily get out the I am going to protect my family.

bubba1876 wrote:

Aggie_engr wrote: I bet just a shot in their direction would be enough to run them off?

I'm not willing to make that bet with my life.

However, even if in the unlikely situation that you got a couple of clean shots off, stopped the threats, and all the innocents made it out alive............ I'm sure some low-life would still sue you for "mental anguish".

There has been a lot of talk elsewhere about the advisability of warning shots.

KD5NRH wrote:

Keith B wrote:In this situation, I think I would be turning over my stuff to the guys and unless the situation turned to where they were DEFINITELY going to shoot, then the best bet is to let them go and not start the lead flying.

Any tips for those of us who can't hear the BG's finger muscles tighten on the trigger, then draw and fire before his hammer drops?

If you keep trying to talk yourself out of doing anything, the first indication you're going to have that it has gotten to that point is when an innocent victim gets shot.

If they already have the drop on you, you stand a less than 50% chance of getting a shot in on them, and even less of a chance that your shot would keep them from shooting back. All in all, they have the upper hand in this 2D Internet scenario. Without seeing other opportunities in a real 3D environment, all I can say is what I feel is best to do. Starting to blast away and create a gunfight like you see in the movies where no one gets killed except the bad guys is not a realistic option IMO. If they start shooting first, then all bets are off.

Purplehood wrote:

bubba1876 wrote:

Aggie_engr wrote: I bet just a shot in their direction would be enough to run them off?

I'm not willing to make that bet with my life.

However, even if in the unlikely situation that you got a couple of clean shots off, stopped the threats, and all the innocents made it out alive............ I'm sure some low-life would still sue you for "mental anguish".

There has been a lot of talk elsewhere about the advisability of warning shots.

I hope your kidding. Warning shots??? Never...nowhere...no how...no way. Firing a warning shot is about as bad a move as i can think of.

Stupid wrote:It's running time. most restaurant has more than 1 exit. at least one front and one in the back.
Only time i'd put up a fight is if i were cornered and no where to go.

Your with your wife and children. Simply moving towards the door as a group puts all at risk and improves their chance of hitting what they are shooting at.

This particular case is illustrative of a great range of problems with armed self defense.

Obviously, in an ideal world, we would be able to get the drop on the BG and wind up achieving three main goals: don't get shot first, make a solid hit on the BG, and don't get anyone else shot by you or the BG in the process. I think these goals may be extremely difficult, if not nearly impossible, to achieve in most cases.

The way I see it, the problem in this scenario is that the BGs are not expecting an armed response from anybody. If two men are robbing patrons in a restaurant table by table, then they are going to be very surprised by the sight of a gun or the sound of a gunshot. In an ideal scenario, then both BGs may be occupied with robbing patrons with their backs turned to you giving you opportunity to draw your weapon without attracting their attention, but as soon as you fire then a couple of things are likely to happen:

1. There is a chance you will miss, and wind up shooting someone other than a BG with your first shot
2. One (in the case that you didn't miss), or both (in case you missed) of the BGs are going to turn around and shoot back in your general direction. Since you are wary of collateral damage, you will be careful as to not to shoot in such a way that might endanger others, but the BGs are going to shoot rapidly and probably will hit other people that are at your table.
3. If you make a hit, there is always the chance that it overpenetrates and winds up hitting someone else.
4. Even if you make a hit, there are good chances the shot BG will remain able to shoot back.

Now in the process you may get off a second shot. Maybe you can get off the second shot and make a hit before the 2nd BG manages to shoot back, even if you make a hit on the first shot. Maybe you're Detective RIggs and you manage to get two BGs DRT with two shots that don't miss, ricochet, overpenetrate, or result in return fire.

IMHO, there are extremely high odds that someone other than the BG is going to get shot if you start shooting. If you get an unobstructed clear shot while the BGs are occupied looking in the other direction and you are a very good shot, you very well might make a solid hit with your first shot but unless you have an equally-positioned partner that is making a calculated shot at the other BG exactly when you shoot, then you can bank on return fire. And we all know what the odds are of a one shot stop.

In the end, I think if the BGs have not started shooting, then the chances that you manage to get out of this scenario having fired the first shot and not being blamed or held responsible for a number of other shots that may be fired are very, very low.

This is not like a crazed gunman scenario like Suzanna Hupp in Luby's. These are robbers using the threat of force, and it is unknown whether they have the will to actually shoot anyone. I am glad I don't have to make the choice about whether to shoot or not, and I certainly hope I never, ever find myself in this position, because I don't think there is any good answer. To shoot first will risk lives. To not shoot first also risks lives.

BTW, for those of you who think escape is the best option, I frankly think that trying to escape is just as likely to cause the BGs to start shooting as for you to start shooting yourself.

mr.72 wrote:This particular case is illustrative of a great range of problems with armed self defense.

Obviously, in an ideal world, we would be able to get the drop on the BG and wind up achieving three main goals: don't get shot first, make a solid hit on the BG, and don't get anyone else shot by you or the BG in the process. I think these goals may be extremely difficult, if not nearly impossible, to achieve in most cases.

The way I see it, the problem in this scenario is that the BGs are not expecting an armed response from anybody. If two men are robbing patrons in a restaurant table by table, then they are going to be very surprised by the sight of a gun or the sound of a gunshot. In an ideal scenario, then both BGs may be occupied with robbing patrons with their backs turned to you giving you opportunity to draw your weapon without attracting their attention, but as soon as you fire then a couple of things are likely to happen:

1. There is a chance you will miss, and wind up shooting someone other than a BG with your first shot
2. One (in the case that you didn't miss), or both (in case you missed) of the BGs are going to turn around and shoot back in your general direction. Since you are wary of collateral damage, you will be careful as to not to shoot in such a way that might endanger others, but the BGs are going to shoot rapidly and probably will hit other people that are at your table.
3. If you make a hit, there is always the chance that it overpenetrates and winds up hitting someone else.
4. Even if you make a hit, there are good chances the shot BG will remain able to shoot back.

Now in the process you may get off a second shot. Maybe you can get off the second shot and make a hit before the 2nd BG manages to shoot back, even if you make a hit on the first shot. Maybe you're Detective RIggs and you manage to get two BGs DRT with two shots that don't miss, ricochet, overpenetrate, or result in return fire.

IMHO, there are extremely high odds that someone other than the BG is going to get shot if you start shooting. If you get an unobstructed clear shot while the BGs are occupied looking in the other direction and you are a very good shot, you very well might make a solid hit with your first shot but unless you have an equally-positioned partner that is making a calculated shot at the other BG exactly when you shoot, then you can bank on return fire. And we all know what the odds are of a one shot stop.

In the end, I think if the BGs have not started shooting, then the chances that you manage to get out of this scenario having fired the first shot and not being blamed or held responsible for a number of other shots that may be fired are very, very low.

This is not like a crazed gunman scenario like Suzanna Hupp in Luby's. These are robbers using the threat of force, and it is unknown whether they have the will to actually shoot anyone. I am glad I don't have to make the choice about whether to shoot or not, and I certainly hope I never, ever find myself in this position, because I don't think there is any good answer. To shoot first will risk lives. To not shoot first also risks lives.

BTW, for those of you who think escape is the best option, I frankly think that trying to escape is just as likely to cause the BGs to start shooting as for you to start shooting yourself.

Exactly what I was thinking on each and every point. Pulling a gun could and most likely will, get innocents shot. Keith makes a very good point also concerning accuracy and stress. When the screaming starts and the bullets start flying, all bets are off.

I typically eat with folks I care about. I don't want to get any of them shot so I can act like deputy dawg.

This thread/discussion has certainly provided food for thought. (pun intended)

Keith B wrote:If they already have the drop on you, you stand a less than 50% chance of getting a shot in on them, and even less of a chance that your shot would keep them from shooting back.

They have 39 other people to deal with, and they can't watch everybody at once. In many restaurants, they won't even be able to have line-of-sight on everyone at once.

Crowded restaurant...so maybe they won't notice you. Maybe i would not notice them, but yet i see you pull a gun and point it across the restaurant. You pull the trigger. Now I see you as a threat so I pull my gun and blast you. Yes....it could happen.

In all these internet scenarios, nobody ever wants to address how other CHL holders know your the good guy. Heck...everything seemed good until the guy with the gun started shooting at someone, so i took the nut job out. Only a nut would start firing a gun in a crowded restaurant or store...right? I'm not saying this to call anyone here nutty, I am simply wondering what radar signal some of you fellers plan to send so I know your a good guy, especially if you plan to fire the first shots of the night?