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I would have called 911 and been the best witness I could have been.

I choose to protect me and my family. Others (mostly) have the same oportunity as me to get the tools they need to protect themselves. If they choose not to, that is their choice. But their choice does not mean I have an obligation to protect them.

I can't save all the sheep.

Again a good point. In the instance in Austin I keep thinking that, in that scenario, I am with the wife, and my safety instincts would also be kicking in, which might mitigate other impulses. At worst (worse?) a 9/11 call is a good idea.

Here's the secondary question.
You call 9/11.
A. The participants say beat it.
B. the woman starts calling for help, that they are being attacked (the couple scenario).
What to do at that point?

frazzled wrote:Again a good point. In the instance in Austin I keep thinking that, in that scenario, I am with the wife, and my safety instincts would also be kicking in, which might mitigate other impulses. At worst (worse?) a 9/11 call is a good idea.

Here's the secondary question.
You call 9/11.
A. The participants say beat it.
B. the woman starts calling for help, that they are being attacked (the couple scenario).
What to do at that point?

A. Leave
B. Send the woman a CHL application.

jlangton wrote:

DoubleActionCHL wrote: Still, I'm not sure I can sit back and watch some guy beat a woman to death, domestic or not.

Perfect example of why this mentality is broken...
You drive up on a truck with a man outside the window beating the snot out of the woman inside. You intervene and end up fatally wounding the man, only later to find out the woman had stolen his truck, and he was trying to simply reacquire his property. This really happened locally.
Now...are you so sure you'd intervene in a male/female confrontation?
JL

I completely understand the possibilities. It doesn't mean the predisposition to come to the aid of a woman is flawed, just more complex.

DoubleActionCHL wrote: It doesn't mean the predisposition to come to the aid of a woman if flawed, just more complex.

I agree. I was raised with respect for women and taught that they are never to be physically "handled",so it's difficult for me to deal with people that do that.
But, knowing the issues and the problems with getting involved in a situation I know nothing about, I must physically stay out of it.
JL

Me ? ? ?
Well, basically as asked; (( If this attact was on me )) I would have noted where my gal was, (try to cover her) drawn ... and fired at the closest individual.....then ready to fire at the next, and if needed, I would have engaged the next and the last threat ! (( A double tap each, may not have been necessary ../.. one tap each, until that kind of THREAT STOPS !!
I will not suffer any, damn beating, like those, the thugs dished out ! That"s bull !!!!
Mac

I think the issue is more if you were a bystander that was witness to the scenario, vs. being in the scenario.

I guess the one positive of the discussion is that, personally I am going to be more careful in downtown Austin. The wife/daughter were going to downtown to some cookie place this weekend. I've decided to tag along now. Being able to pick and choose ingredients and have them baked into the cookie on the spot has absolutely nothing to do with that, really...

Imagine this. A man is being attacked by three men. One of the attackers hits him with a baseball bat. The victim falls to the ground and they kick him while he's down.

What would happen if a third party used deadly force to stop the attack?

What would happen if this is the real story?

It's hard for me to say.

If I saw a someone being beaten within an inch of their life I'd like to think I'd help.

If I saw a woman being attacked at all by one or five men I'd try to help, gun or no gun.

Might the gun get grabbed? Maybe. But that shouldn't stop me from helping someone in need. The gun is supposed to be aid, not a hinderance to helping someone (whether you or somone else) from harm.

You should weigh everything as quickly and as carefully as you can when in a situation where you could potentially get into a physical struggle with someone, especially if you have a gun on. I had to do just that a few weeks ago in a situation right in front of my house.

jlangton wrote:

DoubleActionCHL wrote: Still, I'm not sure I can sit back and watch some guy beat a woman to death, domestic or not.

Perfect example of why this mentality is broken...
You drive up on a truck with a man outside the window beating the snot out of the woman inside. You intervene and end up fatally wounding the man, only later to find out the woman had stolen his truck, and he was trying to simply reacquire his property. This really happened locally.
Now...are you so sure you'd intervene in a male/female confrontation?
JL

Well, I think the "real" situation got stretched a little. In this situation, the man wants his truck back. He doesn't have to beat the snot out of the lady, just grab her, make her "uncomfortable" enough not to drive away, then unlock the door and throw her out and take his car back. (I'm assuming at least the window was open since he was able to "beat the snot ouf of her.")

If you intervened and told the guy to "STOP" right now, worst case is he'd stop and she'd take his car and you'd have messed up his chance of getting his car back. Best case is you'd avoid the lady being killed. If he continued beating her down after I yelled stop, then yeah, he might have made a critical mistake to add onto my recognition mistake that would end with him dead. I think the chance of that happening if he's actually just trying to get his car back and is not way stoned is very low. I'd take my chances with that one, but wouldn't expect anyone else to necessarily make the same decision.

p.s. You got a link to the real situation?

SlowDave wrote:Well, I think the "real" situation got stretched a little. In this situation, the man wants his truck back. He doesn't have to beat the snot out of the lady, just grab her, make her "uncomfortable" enough not to drive away, then unlock the door and throw her out and take his car back. (I'm assuming at least the window was open since he was able to "beat the snot ouf of her.")

If you intervened and told the guy to "STOP" right now, worst case is he'd stop and she'd take his car and you'd have messed up his chance of getting his car back. Best case is you'd avoid the lady being killed. If he continued beating her down after I yelled stop, then yeah, he might have made a critical mistake to add onto my recognition mistake that would end with him dead. I think the chance of that happening if he's actually just trying to get his car back and is not way stoned is very low. I'd take my chances with that one, but wouldn't expect anyone else to necessarily make the same decision.

p.s. You got a link to the real situation?

Well, beating a dead horse here, but I never said I WOULD get involved. I said I wasn't sure if I could sit back and watch a guy beat a woman senseless. As any intelligent person would, I would assess the situation as best I could. If another person was in earshot, I'd call for them to call 911. We will never have enough information to make the right decision, but hopefully we observed long enough to make a reasonable decision.

And remember, 'getting involved' doesn't necessarily mean pulling my gun. I have other options. Obviously, "Decision/Avoidance" is number one. Then we move to verbalization; of course, I'm keeping my distance. It escalates from there. Sometimes the escalation takes 30 seconds, sometimes it takes 0.5 seconds. You must have a plan before you get involved. And when dealing with a 3rd party dispute, remember the old saying, "No good dead goes unpunished."

t_kopecky wrote:she turned on me and claimed I threatened to kill everyone. I was arrested for Deadly Conduct.

This is an excellent reason to spend the $30 on a voice recorder, and start it as soon as you become aware of a problem. Even if it doesn't pick up everything they say clearly, your exact words will be well documented.

Several of the low-priced models don't allow in-unit editing, so you would be unable to, for example, pause recording while you yell something then restart recording to the same file afterwards or cut out a section of a recording afterward. That limitation can work in your favor if it goes to court. In fact, if your unit doesn't allow it, it might be a good idea to write a letter to the company asking if it can, and file their response where you (or someone who can get it to your attorney) can find it in a hurry if needed.

KD5NRH wrote:

t_kopecky wrote:she turned on me and claimed I threatened to kill everyone. I was arrested for Deadly Conduct.

This is an excellent reason to spend the $30 on a voice recorder, and start it as soon as you become aware of a problem. Even if it doesn't pick up everything they say clearly, your exact words will be well documented.

Several of the low-priced models don't allow in-unit editing, so you would be unable to, for example, pause recording while you yell something then restart recording to the same file afterwards or cut out a section of a recording afterward. That limitation can work in your favor if it goes to court. In fact, if your unit doesn't allow it, it might be a good idea to write a letter to the company asking if it can, and file their response where you (or someone who can get it to your attorney) can find it in a hurry if needed.

A good Idea, Lets see .
keys? Check
Pen? Check
Paper pad? Check
Gun? Check
BUG? Check
Spare Mags? Check
Cell Phone? Check
Pepper spray? Check
Knife? ChecK
Wallet? Check
CHL and License? Check?
Flashlight? Check?
handydandy Leatherman? Check
Audio Recording device? Check
Digital Camera? Check.
spare batteries for all this stuff? Check

I think I need a wheelbarrow to go off to work. I know I'm not going to get a purse to carry all this stuff.

Liberty wrote: keys? Check
Pen? Check
Paper pad? Check
Gun? Check
BUG? Check
Spare Mags? Check
Cell Phone? Check
Pepper spray? Check
Knife? ChecK
Wallet? Check
CHL and License? Check?
Flashlight? Check?
handydandy Leatherman? Check
Audio Recording device? Check
Digital Camera? Check.
spare batteries for all this stuff? Check

I think I need a wheelbarrow to go off to work. I know I'm not going to get a purse to carry all this stuff.

Coronado vest. You've pretty much described the contents of mine, except that I also have my VE nametag in there. (and mine is the Safari style, which doesn't appear to be listed anymore)

As a bonus, if I have a sudden emergency come up, I can just throw on the vest and go. Pants optional.

Call 911 on the cell phone and yell to them that you are doing so. The response will probably be informative.