TexasCHLforum.com

When it's time to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.

casingpoint wrote:Excalibur wrote:

In my opinion the best option would be a command: "Drop the gun - NOW!"

Agreed. But that's more for cops who have some training and experience along that line, not necessarily for others who are statutorily only empowered and taught primarily to use deadly force in self defense.

If you're alert and well trained

Most of us are probably deficient in both on a daily basis and will be lucky to pull a gun and get off a disabling shot, much less talk a perp down.

If you decide to use verbal tactics in a situation like that, you can't afford to be fuzzy. You need to tell the guy to do what you want him to do as clearly and with as few words as possible. A short, sharp command has the best chance of success. This has nothing to do with police authority or civilian status. The only difference between an LEO command and a civilian one in this situation is verbal annunciation of the LEO's authority - e.g. "POLICE!" Obviously, a civilian leaves this part out of his planning.

I agree that verbal tactics are not always (or even often) the best option for facing someone with a drawn firearm. The OP's friend felt he had more options and exercised them successfully, but that course of action was situation specific and may not be available next time.

dihappy wrote:Seriously? People actually pull guns out when a GUN is pointed at them?

If i was in my truck and someone pulled a gun on me at a traffic light, my foot would be on the pedal before you could blink!

And I'd probably flick the rear fender his way in passing.

Excaliber wrote:The only difference between an LEO command and a civilian one in this situation is verbal annunciation of the LEO's authority - e.g. "POLICE!" Obviously, a civilian leaves this part out of his planning.

If you are not in the military and subject to the UCMJ, you are a civilian. Recall the distinct effort of Ft Hood officials in their reporting that a civilian police officer stopped the attack.

dihappy wrote:Seriously? People actually pull guns out when a GUN is pointed at them?

If i was in my truck and someone pulled a gun on me at a traffic light, my foot would be on the pedal before you could blink!

My thoughts exactly. Escape would be faster than shooting I think...however if there isn't space enough to rapidly drive away I would shoot to stop, control, neutralize the threat. Backs up criminologist Gary Kleck's findings and John Lott's too very nicely.

wheelgun1958 wrote:

Excaliber wrote:The only difference between an LEO command and a civilian one in this situation is verbal annunciation of the LEO's authority - e.g. "POLICE!" Obviously, a civilian leaves this part out of his planning.

If you are not in the military and subject to the UCMJ, you are a civilian. Recall the distinct effort of Ft Hood officials in their reporting that a civilian police officer stopped the attack.

I find using "non-LEO" cumbersome, so I took a linguistic short cut.

You are correct, though, and I am aware of the distinction.

I guess I'll just have to get used to clumsy language on this point unless someone can suggest a slicker way of talking about regular folks who aren't cops.

Excaliber wrote:I guess I'll just have to get used to clumsy language on this point unless someone can suggest a slicker way of talking about regular folks who aren't cops.

On Adam-12 they called them citizens.

I find using "non-LEO" cumbersome, so I took a linguistic short cut.

I like linguistic short cuts. It's generally accepted and well known. Just because it's not politically correct, don't mean it's wrong. It's a lot easier to say than a mouth full of words to describe what we all know.

If you are not familiar with the term 'civilian' as used in this context, then I suggest you ain't been in Texas long enough.

[the deliberate use of a vulgarism to make a point generally accepted as well]

Two things I learned from the movie "The Inctredibles":

1) NEVER start monologuing

2) NO CAPES!


(Talking while the BG already had a gun pulled was a dicey, dicey decision, IMO)

verbal annunciation of the LEO's authority - e.g. "POLICE!" Obviously, a civilian leaves this part out of his planning.

I don't know about that. I defy anyone to tell me the audible difference under stress between, "POLICE DROP THE GUN" and "PLEASE DROP THE GUN." No prosecutor will never be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt what you actually said in court.

And if you really want to get the drop on 'em, just flip out one of these. Between the verbal commands and the bright flashes, they're as good as behind bars:

Several have suggested that they would have punch the accelerator and drove away. On that section of Mockingbird, he may not have had that option. It is very easy to get boxed in on that road.

Yelling "Drop the gun" or Drop the weapon" also tells any bystanders that you are being assaulted by a BG and may help if you need to go to a grand jury or beyond. In this case, considering the location on Mockingbird, I doubt there were any bystanders anyway.

If it's bad enough to pull, it's bad enough to shoot.
YMMV.

WildBill wrote:

Excaliber wrote:I guess I'll just have to get used to clumsy language on this point unless someone can suggest a slicker way of talking about regular folks who aren't cops.

On Adam-12 they called them citizens.

That would solve the problem if it weren't for the fact that LEO's are citizens too.

I suppose we could start a whole new set of terminology for those with Level 1 arrest powers (citizens with the power to make a citizen's arrest) and Level 2 arrest powers (local LEO authority), and go up through levels 3 and 4 for state and federal jurisdiction.

(Sigh) It was so much easier when I could just call regular folks "civilians".

stroo wrote:Several have suggested that they would have punch the accelerator and drove away. On that section of Mockingbird, he may not have had that option. It is very easy to get boxed in on that road.

No kidding! I think they managed to squeeze four lanes out of two!

This has impacted the image that I've had in my head of the altercation from the get go. In that area, the car doors could have been impossible to open and the car boxed in regardless of how well he attempted to plan.

KFP wrote:

stroo wrote:Several have suggested that they would have punch the accelerator and drove away. On that section of Mockingbird, he may not have had that option. It is very easy to get boxed in on that road.

No kidding! I think they managed to squeeze four lanes out of two!

This has impacted the image that I've had in my head of the altercation from the get go. In that area, the car doors could have been impossible to open and the car boxed in regardless of how well he attempted to plan.

It's all Monday morning quarterbacking and at the end of the day the victim of the car jacking survived. However, having worked that area late at night back before CHL, I can tell you I really wanted to carry a gun back then. We don't know all the details and personally I really hope I never in my life have to hurt or kill someone. However, if faced with a similar situation I might have pulled out my 9mm and just kept firing until the mag was empty. Scary, scary to think that I used to work out there in the wee hours completely unarmed, but that was 1992.