Some perspective

[Hoi Polloi]

Very interesting. I always wondered if and where Jesus fit into Islam. I had not thought about the Mormans.

I do know that Jewish people do not think that Jesus is the son of God. Or maybe that's the Orthodox Jews. I get confused about all the different theologies and what the differences are. Often times the differences seem very small and that's what makes it difficult to keep up with, for me at least.

The Orthodox Jews are the Jewish people who hold strictly to the traditions and teachings of Judaism. This is in contrast to Conservative Jews who do not do so as strictly, allowing cultural differences, or Reform Jews who believe that tradition must change for the times. They're all Jewish, though the difference from ultra-Orthodox to humanistic Judaism is huge.

Orthodox Christians are a different group entirely with one huge glaring difference being that they're Christian. They are broken into two (or three) primary groups, those being Eastern Orthodox (Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, etc who all share communion with each other--this being the group most people mean when they say Orthodox, they being the group that is discussed in history books when learning of the so-called Great Schism of 1054 between Catholicism and Orthodoxy) and Oriental Orthodox (the group few in America learn about and also the group closest to their Jewish roots--Coptic, Ethiopian/Eritrean, Malankara, Syriac, etc who share communion with each other but not with the Eastern Orthodox). And a third category can be had for the Assyrian Church of the East, which is Orthodox but does not share communion with either of the above. All of these churches in combination with the Roman Catholic Church were once called the Orthodox Catholic Church, but as they grew apart from each other in liturgy, spirituality, geography, etc one branch primarily used the adjective orthodox (right worshiping or right believing) while the other side primarily used the adjective catholic (universal or for everyone). The difference has stuck to this day. Out of the Catholic/Western group, Protestantism later developed. Ecumenical talks are ongoing between each of these groups to heal the divides and word on the street is that the Russian patriarch and Roman pope could meet in 2012, which would be a historic event.

OK, I'll save it for dicion's radio show. Church history is a fascination of mine.

[Beiruty]

Where is the "infidel" circle.

I think that would be the smaller one on the left? The one with you and me in it.

On the subject of perspective, Christians and Jews are not infidels according to Islam.

I don't know what Koran you have been reading from.

Allah is the name of the only god in Islam. Allah is a pre-Islamic name coming from the compound Arabic word alilah which means the god, which is derived from al (the) ilah (deity). It was formerly the name of the chief god among the numerous idols (360) in the Kaaba in Mecca before Mohammed made them into monotheists. Today a Muslim is one who submits to the god Allah.

Islam means submission to Allah, but originally it meant that strength which characterized a desert warrior who, even when faced with impossible odds, would fight to the death for his tribe. According to the “Encyclopedia of Religion”, Allah corresponded to the Babylonian god Baal, and Arabs knew of him long before Mohammed worshipped him as the supreme god. Before Islam the Arabs recognized many gods and goddesses, each tribe had their own deity. There were also nature deities. Allah was the god of the local Quarish tribe, which was Mohammed’s tribe before he invented Islam to lead his people out of their polytheism. Allah was then known as the Moon god, who had three daughters who were viewed as intercessors for the people to Allah. Their names were Al-at, AL-uzza, and Al-manat, which were three goddesses; the first two daughters of Allah had names which were feminine forms of Allah. Hubal was the chief god of the Kaaba among the other 360 deities. Hubal was a statue likness of a man whose body was made of red precious stones whose arms were made of gold.

The literal name of Mohammed’s father in Arabic is Abd Allah, while his uncle’s name was Obred Allah. These names show the devotion of Mohammed’s families’ pagan roots, and also prove that Allah was part of a polytheistic system of worship before Allah was made the supreme and only god from the other gods. This should be proof to the pre-Islamic root of the name of Allah to the Muslim. Remember they were pagans who used this name. He kept his family name above all the other names.

Mohammed made Allah into a single being who, unlike the Bible’s God who is called Father, who has no son. This god has never revealed himself to man; but revealed only his will. This god is so removed from man that it is impossible to know him in a personal way, he relates to man only through his will and law. It is a religion of obedience. Of the 99 names of the god of Islam, not one is “Father” or has a personal connation. The difference is not to be overlooked. No Muslim would ever consider being able to have a personal relationship with him, by talking to him, and loving him. Jesus taught the saved to pray “our Father which art in heaven” (Matthew 6:9) Throughout the Old Testament God was real to the prophets who had Him personally speak to them and they to him.

In Islam some state that if one memorizes the 99 names of Allah and repeats them he will get into paradise because these names give the believer power, making them conscious of God. Neither the Koran nor the Hadith speak of these names in such a way. The Suras in the Koran begin with “In the name of Allah, most gracious, most merciful.” Yet, in practice Islam’s god is portrayed as stern, harsh, having compassion on those who are right and deals severely with those who do not.

While Muslims affirm Jesus’ virgin conception, they deny He had any pre-existence that would imply He is God. Muslims claim that the name Allah can be found in the Bible. Allah is not called Yahweh once in the Koran but neither is Yahweh called Allah in the Bible. So, they cannot be the same God. Neither is the word Elohim, which is applied to Yahweh over 2,500 times in the Bible used in the Koran. Neither is he called “I Am,”” which he said to Moses would be His name forever.

The God of the Bible identifies Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jacobs’ name is later changed to the name Israel, being the Father of the 12 tribes of Israel. The God of the Bible calls Jerusalem the city of David and that the Messiah would descend from his lineage. Neither does the God of the Bible mention Mecca or Medina; but instead Jerusalem 800 times. Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Koran, which the Muslim calms as their own.

The God in the Bible is called the God of the Jews which is impossible with Allah. They are called His chosen people, but they are not Allah’s chosen. Allah commands the Muslim to not take the Jews or Christians as friends because they are infidels. Sura 5:51 distains the Jews. Mohammed said, “The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims kill them.” (Mishkat Al Masabih Sh.M. Ashraf pp. 147, 721, 810-11, 1130).

So, how could Israel inherit the land or any of God’s promises from Allah, if he is their God? Clearly he is not the same God of the Bible.

The first Arabic translation of the Bible came into existence about the 9th century. Nowhere is the name of Allah found in the Old or New Testament. When Islam became the dominant political force people were coerced to use the name Allah for God or suffer the consequences from the hands of militant Muslims. Allah became the common name of God because of Islam’s dominance. The translators of the Bible gave in to the religious pressures and substituted Allah for Yahweh in the Arabic Bibles, but this is not the name of the God of the Hebrews, nor of the creator who made Heaven and earth, because of its source in paganism. His nature and attributes have only a few basic similarities and many more differences.




____________________________________________________________________

I am a Muslim, and I believe you have many misconceptions about Islam. What you wrote seems like a Christian Priest who had a Ph.D. In so called Islamic Studies from Vatican.
What I can see immediately is that your are trying to confuse the reader with cherry picked observation not supported by the Holy Koran nor the Haddith.

For example, starting by the nature of Creator, our God, we Call him in Arabic, Allah is totally different from what pagans used to worship. True the name Allah was used by Arabs before the time of our Prophet Muhammad. But Muslims do not worship a pagan idol.

Here I quote from Quran't translation:
Sura 109:
Say: O disbelievers! (1) I worship not that which ye worship; (2) Nor worship ye that which I worship. (3) And I shall not worship that which ye worship. (4) Nor will ye worship that which I worship. (5) Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. (6)

Sahih International
Say, "O disbelievers,
Muhsin Khan
Say (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)to these Mushrikun and Kafirun): "O Al-Kafirun (disbelievers in Allah, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar, etc.)!
109:2
Sahih International
I do not worship what you worship.
Muhsin Khan
"I worship not that which you worship,
109:3
Sahih International
Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Muhsin Khan
"Nor will you worship that which I worship.
109:4
Sahih International
Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
Muhsin Khan
"And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.
109:5
Sahih International
Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
Muhsin Khan
"Nor will you worship that which I worship.
109:6
Sahih International
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."
Muhsin Khan
"To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islamic Monotheism)."

Also, in Islam, The God of all Prophets starting from Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jacob(Israel), Ishack, Ismail, all the way to Jesus(Issa) and finally Muhammad are the same one and one God , one Creator we call in Arabic Allah. THe surats that tell the story of all Prophets are too long to list here.

The true nature of our Creator is not like us mere humans, nor we can imagine him with our limited brain (mind). God talked to Moses with no translator nor through revelation via an Angle like all other Prophets. We can not see God in this life with our mere eyes. However, the some of the people of Heaven will see their Creator and this is the ultimate blessing for them.

Least to say about our Creator is what God said, I quote from a translation of the Quran:
Surat 112: Say: He is Allah, the One! (1) Allah, the eternally Besought of all! (2) He begetteth not nor was begotten. (3) And there is none comparable unto Him. (4)


Moreover, you are wrong, Jerusalem was mentioned in the Quran. It is referred to the as "Baytol Maqdess, Baytol Aqsa". Literally, it means the house of the holiest.

Here I quote from a translation of the Quran:
17:1
Muhsin Khan
Glorified (and Exalted) be He (Allah) [above all that (evil) they associate with Him] [Tafsir Qurtubi, Vol. 10, Page 204] Who took His slave (Muhammad SAW) for a journey by night from Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) to the farthest mosque (in Jerusalem), the neighborhood whereof We have blessed, in order that We might show him (Muhammad SAW) of Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, lessons, signs, etc.). Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer.

[Oldgringo]

Beiruty wrote:

Moreover, you are wrong...

Well, I reckon that settles that.

[Barbi Q]

The tolerance has definitely wore out as evidenced by....you pick 'em.

Fred Phelps
Jeremiah Wright
Patrick Joseph McCabe

[hangfour]

Thanks Beiruty for your comments. I so enjoy hearing what the Holy Koran says about this discussion. I'm a research scientist and I always respect the data over opinions and interpretations. Quoting the Bible or the Holy Koran (in context) go a long way with me.

I ran across a book a few years ago which I understand is the jihadist root text. The title is "Milestones" by Seyyed Qutb. It's a must read for anyone who wants to understand how the Holy Koran can be interpreted (I believe wrongly) to justify killing of innocents including other Muslims. It's a real eye opener.

[Oldgringo]

Thanks Beiruty for your comments. I so enjoy hearing what the Holy Koran says about this discussion. I'm a research scientist and I always respect the data over opinions and interpretations. Quoting the Bible or the Holy Koran (in context) go a long way with me.

I ran across a book a few years ago which I understand is the jihadist root text. The title is "Milestones" by Seyyed Qutb. It's a must read for anyone who wants to understand how the Holy Koran can be interpreted (I believe wrongly) to justify killing of innocents including other Muslims. It's a real eye opener.

, we need more data and less interpretation. I must say; the killing of innocents, and the manner in which it has been done, has certainly been a real eye opener for me.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I've tried very hard to stay out of these types of threads and I'm sure this one will get locked too.

Only a handful of terrorists commandeered the airliners and flew them into the World Trade Centers. Only a relatively few Germans ran the death camps. The few 9/11 terrorists were backed by the protection, money and encouragement of Muslim countries. The few Germans in the death camps were supported directly by the German government and indirectly by the population.

At the end of WWI, Gen. Eisenhower did something the world thought was cruel; he forced German citizens to walk through the death camps so they couldn't deny the Holocaust occurred. His actions proved he was a visionary since many now argue the Holocaust never happened.

While the dust from the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers was still in the air, news media were already interviewing Muslim Imams in the United States. I watched those interviews wanting to hear them denounce terrorism, but not one did, not a single one. Oh they said things like "we believe in peace" or "we don't believe in senseless killing" but it was couched in vague terms and terrorism in general was never denounced. In three interviews the Imam was asked of the Koran really did authorize a jihad and all three said "yes." They were then asked if the attacks against the World Trade Center could be considered a jihad and not one would answer the question. At the same time news reports from the Muslim world heralded 9/11 as a great victory against the evil America and there was dancing in the streets.

I have a Palestinian acquaintance who is a Christian as is his whole family. He had to leave Israel and come to Friendswood because he and his family "were hated by everyone." The Israelis hated them because they were Palestinian and the Palestinians hated them because they are Christians. He scoffs at the premise that Islam is a peaceful religion. In his words, "there is no greater sin than a Muslim becoming a Christian."

I have no doubt that many Muslims are not willing to take part in murder and other terrorists acts, either directly or by supporting those who do. These are peace-loving honorable people, but they do not transform a religion that supports killing the infidel in a jihad into a peaceful religion. If peaceful Muslims really do outnumber violent ones by 188,000 to 1, then why haven't they risen up against them and stopped the killing? Why haven't they demanded their governments stop supporting Muslim terrorists?

There are peaceful Muslims, but Islam is not a religion of peace.

Chas.

[Oldgringo]

Thank you, Charles.

I believe you have, quite eloquently, hit the proverbial nail squarely on its head.

[Charles L. Cotton]

This thread is going to be locked in 24 hours and no more discussions about Islam will be tolerated. The only reason it isn't going to be locked now is because I posted something and I want to let everyone have a chance to respond.

Beginning at 5:00 pm tomorrow, we are going to treat threads about Islam and Muslims like we do threads about LEO's. Discussions about specific events involving Muslims will be fine, as long as they don't turn into general Muslim-bashing. By the same token, anyone who posts a response comparing the event to something a Christian allegedly did will have their post deleted and perhaps their registration as well. I cannot tell you how sick I am of this garbage. In view of what I have seen with my own two eyes, it's insulting to read the attempts to revise recent history.

Chas.

[Texas Size 11]

Fundamentalist of any religion can make it violent. I have some Muslim neighbors who came to bring food by for Ramadan (probably misspelled) and explained what it was about. I thought it was interesting considering none of my Christian neighbors bring food by for any holiday of that faith. I may be wrong (and somebody will correct me I am sure), but weren't the Crusades a series if religious sanctioned military campaigns to restore Christian control of the Holy Land? It seems that relgions have been fighting each other since early times about their ideology and who is "right." How many fundamentalist Christians have killed abortion doctors? It doesn't seem real peaceful to me either. In fact, most mainstream religions don't seem real peaceful to me when it comes down to it. Don't misunderstand, I don't think relgion is a bad thing - it is just that many people are a little biased toward their own faith much like many of us are biased that Texas is the best state in the union. Try to convince a Texan otherwise...

I was brought up Catholic, but I really don't particularly buy into any one faith. I am a spiritual person, but as long as someone is peaceful and living life in a manner where they are not infringing on others right and condoning violence against other people then I really don't care what religion of belief system they are from.

At the end of the day it is all about being a good person to me. I couldn't agree with what AndyC said mroe, "Doesn't matter to me what someone's beliefs are, unless they use it as an excuse to remove others from the face of the earth. Those are the folks I don't mind sending on their way in the slightest."

[Beiruty]

Since there is still a chance to respond let me add simple points.
1) In Traditional Islam and since its early days and till now, It is forbidden to attack, harm or kill, all non-combatant civilians regardless of their age or sex (or even the captured POWs) who are not actively engaged in the battlefield.
2) Only the extremists and followers of like of Sayyed Qutob mentioned above differs.
3) It is also true that Muslims are combating terrorism (for example attacking mass civilians, like 911). This effort could be via many means, education, deterrence, punishment or even real combat. Anyone who claim otherwise is not fair.
4) Extremists are more dangerous and present real threat for the Majority of Muslims worldwide. Moderate Muslims are targeted first.

[BobCat]

I worked with a guy from Turkey, an engineer (and a good one!) who was rotated in for a year in a product center before going back to the Field - oilfield business is like that.

Being from Turkey, he was Muslim - he said he was not real observant but, just like many people in Italy are Catholic, and many in England are Protestant, many in Turkey are Muslim... whatever.

On 9/11/01 they rolled a TV set on cart into a conference room at work, so people could watch the Twin Towers burn and finally collapse. Pretty sober crowd. And here is my Turkish friend, wide-eyed and nervous as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs, looking around like he's watching maybe for a .45 ACP round to come flying at him from out-of-the-blue or wherever. I asked him what was up, and he looked around and alluded to the idea that he was Muslim, like the people who hijacked the airliners, and maybe it would be a good idea to make himself scarce the rest ofthe day.

I reassured him that nobody at work was going to hold him personally responsible. We have people from all over the world working together, and flying all over the world to work on various assignments. We have ID badges - certain buildings are only accessible to certain people - but none - how do I do italics... none of the badges have a spot for religion. Anywhere on them.

I'm not sure what my point is, but if someone is a hard-worker and an honest person, I couldn't give a plugged nickel what s/he worships, if anything at all. And I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon when they start rounding up "whoever" - once it starts it is real hard to shut down, History shows it. So - if someone is shooting at me I'll return fire. If it looks really, really likely they're fixin' to start shooting at me, I might be moved to fire preemptively - not likely but possible. But if they merely "look" like someone who hates me, for whatever reason, I will keep an eye on them - that's all.

Stay safe.

Regards,
Andrew

[Hoi Polloi]

I think that when one small group says it speaks for or acts in the name of a much larger group when it acts immorally, unethically, or illegally that in assessing the larger group's potential culpability that the distinctions that needs to be made are a) what are the tenets/teachings of the group on this topic, b) are the actions divergent from the teachings of the group, c) what did the larger group know about the smaller group's activities, d) how do the rest of the group's members respond: with support, acceptance, or condemnation, and e) on what basis do the other members support, accept, or reject these actions?

Clearly, those who appear acceptant out of fear of death do not hold the same culpability as those who go out of their way to support a cause, either by their participation or their silence. We could pull examples from any faith tradition or institution...

BP and the oil spill. Martha Stewart and high-rolling investors. Mel Gibson's church and Catholicism. Fred Phelps and Protestants. Roman Polanski and celebrities. You name a religion (Sikh, Buddhist, Jewish, Hindu, Unitarian, Atheist, Muslim, etc) or the institution and the same criteria would apply. There are always going to be rotten apples--the issue is what will be done about them by the rest of the group.

[Oldgringo]

Since there is still a chance to respond let me add simple points.
1) In Traditional Islam and since its early days and till now, It is forbidden to attack, harm or kill, all non-combatant civilians regardless of their age or sex (or even the captured POWs) who are not actively engaged in the battlefield.
2) Only the extremists and followers of like of Sayyed Qutob mentioned above differs.
3) It is also true that Muslims are combating terrorism (for example attacking mass civilians, like 911). This effort could be via many means, education, deterrence, punishment or even real combat. Anyone who claim otherwise is not fair.
4) Extremists are more dangerous and present real threat for the Majority of Muslims worldwide. Moderate Muslims are targeted first.

There is an old American sayin', "it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bushel". FWIW, my feelings are:

I want to believe that there are peace-loving and honorable Muslims. Americans, by and large are a peace loving and forgiving people, once these innumerable moderate Muslims you speak of take an active and public role in denouncing the few fanatical Muslims and policing Islam's ranks, the current suspicion and fear of Islam in America will rapidly dissipate. Until such time as that happens, the bushel has bad apples.

This is an olive branch. Good luck and God Bless.