The Richmond Beat-down, How Would You Handle This Situation?

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ELB
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Re: The Richmond Beat-down, How Would You Handle This Situat

Post by ELB »

Excaliber wrote: ...For better or worse, you should be aware that use of a knife for defense, especially in preference over a handgun, will likely face skepticism at best from investigators. They see lots of attacks with edged weapons, and very few if any valid defensive uses. This background can color their approach to the investigation at the outset in a way that is not favorable to you.
Heh. My lawyer will be happy to explain it to them. ;-)

More seriously, I am aware, but this is almost comical when you see the TDI and all kinds of other knives advertised at all the police gear website and stores. Do cops carry TDIs and such so they can attack, or defend? (Remind me to supply my lawyer with the LAPG catalogue...)

I suspect the reason they don't see (or don't think they see) more defensive" uses of the knife is because of the impressions that are illustrated by comments seen here and elsewhere that knives need specialized training, that only bad guys use them, convict schools in prison and the like -- basically the "good guys" have ceded a very effective weapon - effective in both attack and defense-- to the bad guys. This is nonsense.
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Re: The Richmond Beat-down, How Would You Handle This Situat

Post by Excaliber »

ELB wrote:
Excaliber wrote: ...For better or worse, you should be aware that use of a knife for defense, especially in preference over a handgun, will likely face skepticism at best from investigators. They see lots of attacks with edged weapons, and very few if any valid defensive uses. This background can color their approach to the investigation at the outset in a way that is not favorable to you.
Heh. My lawyer will be happy to explain it to them. ;-)

More seriously, I am aware, but this is almost comical when you see the TDI and all kinds of other knives advertised at all the police gear website and stores. Do cops carry TDIs and such so they can attack, or defend? (Remind me to supply my lawyer with the LAPG catalogue...)

I suspect the reason they don't see (or don't think they see) more defensive" uses of the knife is because of the impressions that are illustrated by comments seen here and elsewhere that knives need specialized training, that only bad guys use them, convict schools in prison and the like -- basically the "good guys" have ceded a very effective weapon - effective in both attack and defense-- to the bad guys. This is nonsense.
Some officers carry knives in deep concealment as "last ditch" insurance for a situation where absolutely everything has gone wrong and there are no better options left.

In over 20 years of police work in a 200 officer agency, I and every other officer in my agency used a wide variety of knives with great frequency - as tools. I can't recall a single instance of an officer using an edged weapon in a defensive encounter, although we had those virtually every day. I'm not saying it couldn't happen - it just didn't. Nor can I recall a situation where a knife was used in legitimate self defense in any situation other than family violence when it happened to be the nearest object that came to hand when things got nasty in the kitchen.

Relying on your lawyer to successfully make the case that the one situation you might be involved in is totally unique and unlike all the hundreds of unjustified knife attacks a given prosecutor has seen throughout his career would likely be a protracted and expensive endeavor fraught with peril for your continued freedom. I sincerely hope you never have the need to find out whether this would work out for you or not.
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Re: The Richmond Beat-down, How Would You Handle This Situat

Post by Kirk »

New guy’s point of view (still waiting on processing).

It’s best not to wait till “What should I do now?
What ifs should be run through your head over and over. Being constantly aware of who and what is around you is important. Several years ago I was involved in a catastrophic incident in which the only 2 exits for escape were not usable (1 destroyed and the second submerged underwater). I had run it through several times on how would I get to the escape capsule if every standard way was gone for days before it happen. I had been on the job for over 5 years with this never happening so it really didn’t seem feasible that it would ever happen but I still plan on how I would handle it.

The video doesn’t show the over all area so it’s hard to say exactly how I would handle it. First I would have hung back from the group or retreat back if possible (I don’t see clearly where the victim came from). I know some will say that I have the same right as the BGs to walk down the street but taking a beating or shooting another are not my preferred options but will shoot to defend myself or family. On the video when the BG jumped up behind me, I would have drawn on him and made it clear (verbally) that he should stop immediately or I will fire. I do not believe from what I had seen in the video that would not have made much of a difference. I feel he would have felt it a challenge and would loose face in front of his buddies. Only after firing do I believe they would have stopped.

I did find it interesting that a car driving down the road continued past the beating.
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Re: The Richmond Beat-down, How Would You Handle This Situat

Post by srothstein »

Excaliber wrote:Some officers carry knives in deep concealment as "last ditch" insurance for a situation where absolutely everything has gone wrong and there are no better options left.

In over 20 years of police work in a 200 officer agency, I and every other officer in my agency used a wide variety of knives with great frequency - as tools. I can't recall a single instance of an officer using an edged weapon in a defensive encounter, although we had those virtually every day. I'm not saying it couldn't happen - it just didn't.
I agree with this and was about to respond the exact same way. I used a knife on a regular basis on patrol, to pry things open, cut small stuff, open boxes, etc. I know I have considered how to use one for last ditch defense, and have discussed some tactics with other officers. For example, I think I have posted here before about carrying a small punch dagger to grab with the weak hand if someone made a grab for my gun.

But I have never seen a case where an officer actually used his knife in a defense case. In general, it was hands on, nightstick or asp, mace (and later Taser), of firearm. And very rarely did we go through each of these in order as steps. If it went hands on and got bad enough, we went right to firearms. If it looked early on like it would get bad, we went straight to firearms to prevent the hands on component.

And the last is the caveat I would point out about comparing police tactics to CHL. We could use more overwhelming force earlier and it would be justified easier. Since CHLs do not try to arrest, in general their justifications have to be different. The cops, the law (especially case law), and the courts will look at things differently for CHLs and LEOs.
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Re: The Richmond Beat-down, How Would You Handle This Situat

Post by The Annoyed Man »

I think there would be a certain amount of poetic justice in which the bad guys' video showed one of them catching two slugs in the chest and one between the eyes as an object lesson about why "wilding" can be hazardous to your health.

I'm with Brian in this one. I'm a gimpy old guy. I'm going to to do what I have to do. One of the reasons I carry a gun (there are several) is that it is a force equalizer. I am NOT going to accept a beating. Period. Nothing in Texas law says I have to. God bless Texas.
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Re: The Richmond Beat-down, How Would You Handle This Situat

Post by LongHairedRedneck »

The Annoyed Man wrote:I think there would be a certain amount of poetic justice in which the bad guys' video showed one of them catching two slugs in the chest and one between the eyes as an object lesson about why "wilding" can be hazardous to your health.
:iagree:
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Re: The Richmond Beat-down, How Would You Handle This Situat

Post by Excaliber »

The Annoyed Man wrote:I think there would be a certain amount of poetic justice in which the bad guys' video showed one of them catching two slugs in the chest and one between the eyes as an object lesson about why "wilding" can be hazardous to your health.

I'm with Brian in this one. I'm a gimpy old guy. I'm going to to do what I have to do. One of the reasons I carry a gun (there are several) is that it is a force equalizer. I am NOT going to accept a beating. Period. Nothing in Texas law says I have to. God bless Texas.
Unfortunately, if that happened, we'd never see the video. It would be considered too upsetting (or too educational) to the masses to be aired, and the potential value would be totally lost.
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Re: The Richmond Beat-down, How Would You Handle This Situat

Post by ELB »

I see the last reply I submitted last night has now gone AWOL. :confused5

Roughly it said -- I don't want to lead this particular thread much farther astray. suffice to say I see some somewhat circular reasoning in one of the arguments, and srothstein touched on a key issue -- the differences between police-badguy altercations and citizen-badguy ones. I will be starting a thread on some thoughts about defense against knives (and more generally close in handson stuff), which is what got me here in the first place, then one on defense with knives.
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Re: The Richmond Beat-down, How Would You Handle This Situat

Post by karder »

I am in the same camp with ELB regarding the effectiveness of knives for self-defense. Granted, I have years of training with edged weapons both for offensive and defensive purposes. A knife can very quickly and effectively stop a threat in rather gruesome fashion. You also don't have the over penetration or danger to bystanders problem that you have with a gun. If two or three guys attack me and I have my knife, those two or three guys are in serious trouble, even if they happen to have a lot of training.
The problem is that a knife is largely ineffective against a gun, all things being equal of course. I carry a knife everyday, but if I am in a place where a criminal armed with a gun comes in, I am at a real disadvantage. I am not saying I "couldn't" stop him, but my odds got much lower. That means I have to carry a gun and the knife becomes secondary. Now if I am attacked and forced to defend, I am going to reach for the best weapon at my disposal, which will be the gun, even if I were a situation where the knife would have been more than adequate. I would guess that this is why you don't see officers employing knives. If their taser is not an option, they are in big trouble and will be reaching for their Glock. It turns into a bit of a catch 22.
I have no legal expertise whatsoever, but I tend to think that shoot versus stabbing is a bit of a wash at the end of the day. If prosecutors want to demonize you, they will try to do so, and you better have good representation on your side.
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Re: The Richmond Beat-down, How Would You Handle This Situat

Post by Excaliber »

karder wrote:I am in the same camp with ELB regarding the effectiveness of knives for self-defense. Granted, I have years of training with edged weapons both for offensive and defensive purposes. A knife can very quickly and effectively stop a threat in rather gruesome fashion. You also don't have the over penetration or danger to bystanders problem that you have with a gun. If two or three guys attack me and I have my knife, those two or three guys are in serious trouble, even if they happen to have a lot of training.
The problem is that a knife is largely ineffective against a gun, all things being equal of course. I carry a knife everyday, but if I am in a place where a criminal armed with a gun comes in, I am at a real disadvantage. I am not saying I "couldn't" stop him, but my odds got much lower. That means I have to carry a gun and the knife becomes secondary. Now if I am attacked and forced to defend, I am going to reach for the best weapon at my disposal, which will be the gun, even if I were a situation where the knife would have been more than adequate. I would guess that this is why you don't see officers employing knives. If their taser is not an option, they are in big trouble and will be reaching for their Glock. It turns into a bit of a catch 22.
I have no legal expertise whatsoever, but I tend to think that shoot versus stabbing is a bit of a wash at the end of the day. If prosecutors want to demonize you, they will try to do so, and you better have good representation on your side.
From a theoretical standpoint, perhaps.

In real life prosecutorial behavior, I think you'll find a significant difference in the way these two approaches are handled.

Since you're aware that your opinion isn't based on legal knowledge or experience, it would be wise to consult with a good criminal defense attorney before you make a real life self defense decision that places everything you have on the line.
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Re: The Richmond Beat-down, How Would You Handle This Situat

Post by tacticool »

Excaliber wrote:Nor can I recall a situation where a knife was used in legitimate self defense in any situation other than family violence when it happened to be the nearest object that came to hand when things got nasty in the kitchen.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your experience was in the same state that prosecuted Goetz for defending himself.

Maybe it's possible there were times a knife was used for legitimate self defense and the GG was prosecuted/persecuted by the system, or maybe the GG didn't report the DKU because they were afraid of unjust prosecution by a system with a reputation (deserved or not) for harshly penalizing those who refuse to be a victim.
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Re: The Richmond Beat-down, How Would You Handle This Situat

Post by Excaliber »

tacticool wrote:
Excaliber wrote:Nor can I recall a situation where a knife was used in legitimate self defense in any situation other than family violence when it happened to be the nearest object that came to hand when things got nasty in the kitchen.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your experience was in the same state that prosecuted Goetz for defending himself.

Maybe it's possible there were times a knife was used for legitimate self defense and the GG was prosecuted/persecuted by the system, or maybe the GG didn't report the DKU because they were afraid of unjust prosecution by a system with a reputation (deserved or not) for harshly penalizing those who refuse to be a victim.
Maybe also implies maybe not. :lol:

New York is a big state, and I can't say for sure there wasn't an isolated case of legitimate knife defense outside of a family violence situation somewhere that escaped my attention. In view of the fact that everything you can imagine happened there, including lots of things we couldn't imagine together, I'd even say it would be a better than even bet there was such an instance or even several instances somewhere that I simply didn't hear about.

I can also say it for sure there weren't enough such instances to be described as anything other than extremely rare if they occurred at all. I worked in a big city located among several other big cities, and we saw almost everything NYC did, including terrorist bombings and shootouts with radical groups that would be called terrorists if they did the same things today. We even shared NYPD's clientele due to the wonders of modern transportation which put our city only about a 30 minute ride by train, bus, or highway away from theirs. If I hadn't come across a particular type of activity or offense in 20 years of police work in that environment, it's a pretty good bet it wasn't something that happened very often.

The Goetz case involved a citizen who didn't have a carry license but did have and use a .38 revolver. He carried that gun in violation of the law at that time, and used it to successfully defend himself against a clear criminal attack on a subway train. Mr. Goetz was a Caspar Milquetoast type of character, and the attack by multiple thugs would, in all likelihood, have resulted in serious or fatal injury to him if he had not responded as he did. However, he didn't manage his actions as well as he might have, and, after he had shot and disabled one of his attackers, he fired another apparently gratuitous round into him in full view of the rest of the passengers. (Does a certain pharmacist from Oklahoma come to mind?)

The prosecutor who had to figure out what to do with that bowl of kimchee had a prosecutorial nightmare on his hands. However, to his credit, he initially determined he wasn't going to prosecute Mr. Goetz as a matter of justice under the circumstances - until Mr. Goetz violated the principle that it's better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. For reasons best known to himself he voluntarily made inflammatory statements that caused a public uproar and left the prosecutor no viable option but to file charges. I doubt the prosecutor was any happier with that than you may be, but he had to work with the hand he was dealt. Sometimes you just can't save people from themselves.

You are correct that I did indeed work in the same state where that case took place, but I don't see it as a miscarriage of justice and I have to admit to being puzzled by the applicability of that reference to the current thread here. :headscratch
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Re: The Richmond Beat-down, How Would You Handle This Situat

Post by Excaliber »

tacticool wrote:
Excaliber wrote:Nor can I recall a situation where a knife was used in legitimate self defense in any situation other than family violence when it happened to be the nearest object that came to hand when things got nasty in the kitchen.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your experience was in the same state that prosecuted Goetz for defending himself.

Maybe it's possible there were times a knife was used for legitimate self defense and the GG was prosecuted/persecuted by the system, or maybe the GG didn't report the DKU because they were afraid of unjust prosecution by a system with a reputation (deserved or not) for harshly penalizing those who refuse to be a victim.
Maybe also implies maybe not.

New York is a big state, and I can't say for sure there wasn't an isolated case of legitimate knife defense outside of a family violence situation somewhere that escaped my attention. In view of the fact that everything you can imagine happened there, including lots of things we couldn't imagine together, I'd even say it would be a better than even bet there was such an instance or even several instances somewhere that I simply didn't hear about.

I can also say it for sure there weren't enough such instances to be described as anything other than extremely rare if they occurred at all. I worked in a big city located among several other big cities, and we saw almost everything NYC did, including terrorist bombings and shootouts with radical groups that would be called terrorists if they did the same things today. We even shared NYPD's clientele due to the wonders of modern transportation which put our city only about a 30 minute ride by train, bus, or highway away from theirs, and averaged somewhere around 50,000 calls for service per year. If I didn't come across a particular type of activity or offense in 20 years of police work in that environment, it's a pretty good bet it wasn't something that happened very often.

The Goetz case involved a citizen who didn't have a carry license but did have and use a .38 revolver. He carried that gun in violation of the law at that time, and used it to successfully defend himself against a clear criminal attack on a subway train. Mr. Goetz was a Caspar Milquetoast type of character, and the attack by multiple thugs would, in all likelihood, have resulted in serious or fatal injury to him if he had not responded as he did. However, he didn't manage his actions as well as he might have, and, after he had shot and disabled one of his attackers, he fired another apparently gratuitous round into him in full view of the rest of the passengers. (Does a certain pharmacist from Oklahoma come to mind?)

The prosecutor who had to figure out what to do with that bowl of kimchee had a prosecutorial nightmare on his hands. However, to his credit, he initially determined he wasn't going to prosecute Mr. Goetz as a matter of justice under the circumstances - until Mr. Goetz violated the principle that it's better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. For reasons best known to himself he voluntarily made inflammatory statements that caused a public uproar and left the prosecutor no viable option but to file charges. I doubt the prosecutor was any happier with that than you may be, but he had to work with the hand he was dealt. Sometimes you just can't save people from themselves.

You are correct that I did indeed work in the same state where that case took place, but I don't see it as a miscarriage of justice and I have to admit to being puzzled by the applicability of that reference to the current thread here. :headscratch
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Re: The Richmond Beat-down, How Would You Handle This Situat

Post by Zoomie »

Here is a link to the video that does not require you to sign in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6Np60ixJBE

And if I were the guy I would have drawn down on them very early, and if I thought one of them was going for a weapon I would have shot him. There is no way you could not interpret the perpetrates actions as anything but threatening.
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Re: The Richmond Beat-down, How Would You Handle This Situat

Post by Rikk101 »

hypothetically....say you came across a beat down like this in progress and you decided to try to stop it, and say you don't have a loud, intimidating voice..........what would be the implications of firing off a round to get their attention and cause them to stop beating the guy?
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