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Musta been a fake red box on that cops cruiser computer.

mreavis wrote:Musta been a fake red box on that cops cruiser computer.

I think what gigag04 was saying is that the data is in the TCIC, not the DL or vehicle record, but the cruiser's computer display shows data gathered from all the databases so yes, the officer sees it.

jmorris wrote:

mreavis wrote:Musta been a fake red box on that cops cruiser computer.

I think what gigag04 was saying is that the data is in the TCIC, not the DL or vehicle record, but the cruiser's computer display shows data gathered from all the databases so yes, the officer sees it.

Yes - and only the vehicle part was incorrect. When they "run your name" it should show any TCIC/NCIC hits, including a CHL.

Here just a while back a plain clothed police officer was shot to death by uniformed police at a large altercation at a club, in I think it was Philadelphia.
In the fog of war, if you don't have the right uniform and you have a gun, good chances you will be shot.

WildBill wrote:

RoyGBiv wrote:(2) his conduct is required or authorized to assist a public servant in the performance of his official duty, even though the servant exceeds his lawful authority.

I think the confusion might be coming from the word "required" here... Are there any circumstances where a person (CHL or no) can be "required" to assist a public servant?

I think that this section is to provide a defense against prosecution if you are lawfully required to assist an LEO.

No - subsection (1) and (2) are prefaced by section (d) "The justification afforded by this section is available if the actor
reasonably believes:" It is established as a defense that if you 'believe' you are authorized (or even 'required') - then the section applies as a defense.

If I could help - I'd go anyway!!!

I think the scenario would play out something like this:

The baloon has gone up, the LEO is in need of immediate assistance or he or someone (likely another officer) is in iminent danger, then the LEO approaches you as a innocent looking although scared bystander perhaps fleeing the scene and asks, "Do you have a CHL?" He knows that if you are then you probably have a gun with you and likely to say "yes" perhaps out of instinctive reaction to that question from a police officer. At this point, I would assume that he trusts/can rely on a CHL (to be armed and trustworthy) more than a non-CHL and would try to take advantage of the situation by getting you to volunteer this info and then ask for assistance under PC.9.21 or "posse" law.

Just my own what if scenario.

PC 9.21 is not itself a requirement to act. It's a justification excluding criminal responsibility (defense) if you do act under those conditions.

I doubt an officer would ask if you have a CHL, since he has a 2 or 3% chance of being correct. I'd envision this scenario as the LEO wrestling with a guy twice his size and obviously needing assistance. That's when I would step in with enough force to make it obvious that I was on the LEO's side.

I've assisted LEOs once, outside of a bar I worked at, after they tazed a guy and his homies were about to start a riot. I don't really have a cool story, all the bouncers were ordered outside by the manager and we just stood next to the officers trying convince the customers we knew by name to calm it down. Everything worked out fine.

You could "what if" this to death.

I can't speak for others, but I believe you have a moral obligation to help others in distress - if you have some reasonable prospect of affecting the outcome in a positive way (and maybe even if you don't, but that's just me - no one ever said I was all that smart). Jeeze -You have to at least try, armed or not. I'm not saying take hopeless stupid chances, but if you don't at least try...

rthillusa wrote:You could "what if" this to death.

I can't speak for others, but I believe you have a moral obligation to help others in distress - if you have some reasonable prospect of affecting the outcome in a positive way (and maybe even if you don't, but that's just me - no one ever said I was all that smart). Jeeze -You have to at least try, armed or not. I'm not saying take hopeless stupid chances, but if you don't at least try...

I get your point.
And I agree with you that if you can affect the outcome in a positive way, that is good.
But I believe your first obligation is to those you provide for and thereby yourself.
If your actions could cause direct or indirect harm to your family, that is not good.
The CHL to me is for defense and that's it.
A moral obligation to help goes beyond the CHL.

I asked a LEO in my local PD (19yrs on the force) about this issue prior to posting this thread and he wasnt aware of any laws by the answers he gave me which was that there is nothing that obligated anyone to help the police (not totally true with PC 9.21 or the posse law) . I am always surprised at how much less LEO's seem to know about the law than one would expect. By that I mean he could have given a better explanation of law if he knew what is says.

Thanks to TexasCHLforum I found the answer I was looking for. Now at least I have a better place to start researching the law than I had before. TEXAS CHL FORUM-1, LEO-0 when it comes to asking about the law.

His advice was if you were not otherwise threatened your self to not get involved, seek a safe place and let the police handle things that other officers arriving on the scene could mistake you for a bad guy and shoot you, especially if they see you with a gun.

Every situation is different, but my rule of thumb is if assisting the officer is necessary for me to protect myself and family then I'll assist, if not I'll get my self and family to safety and reassess the situation at least calling 911 to give information.

Charles Whitman anyone? Sometimes without the actions of the populus, the day cannot be saved. (Armed citizens used thier rifles to pin Whitman down long enough for the officers who shot him to make it to the tower)

I view assisting an officer in distress the same as assisting another person. If I have enough of the fact pattern, and my assisting will not place my family in harm, and I can mitigate the risk to myself as much as possible, then I'll likely assist. The only thing that really bothers me is if a cop is rolling around with a suspect in a crowded area and it looks like the suspect might get the cops gun. I might be more likely to act if I think the perp is taking the cops gun....

We had a Texas Highway Patrol Officer sitting in on our class because his wife was taking the class for her license.

He addressed exactly this topic, from his viewpoint, and not as part of the class material, or any official agency position. He said that when he was on patrol he was almost always many miles and many minutes from any back-up officer or any assistance from other peace officers - and it was his sincerest hope that if he was in a jam that some good guy with a gun would be willing to stop and assist if possible. He said he patrolled many lonesome miles of highway, and was frequently called to assist down along the border and that was why he was a such big supporter of the CHL program. He felt like the more good guys that had guns, the more likely he would be to get help when and if he needed it.

rthillusa wrote:We had a Texas Highway Patrol Officer sitting in on our class because his wife was taking the class for her license. He said that when he was on patrol he was almost always many miles and many minutes from any back-up officer or any assistance from other peace officers - and it was his sincerest hope that if he was in a jam that some good guy with a gun would be willing to stop and assist if possible.

I am sure that most of the forums members would gladly assist an LEO in need even if they didn't have a CHL.

rthillusa wrote:You could "what if" this to death.

I can't speak for others, but I believe you have a moral obligation to help others in distress - if you have some reasonable prospect of affecting the outcome in a positive way (and maybe even if you don't, but that's just me - no one ever said I was all that smart). Jeeze -You have to at least try, armed or not. I'm not saying take hopeless stupid chances, but if you don't at least try...

I believe myself a good citizen and if I saw an LEO in trouble I would use my weapon and "comand voice" and help to the best of my ability
If you ask anyone that knows me my voice is definitly bigger than I am