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The Annoyed Man wrote:

chasfm11 wrote:With all due respect to Mr. Buffet's tremendous success:
1. We don't have a tax problem, we have a spending problem...

I am in complete agreement with you. I just thought it was ironic that here we are defending his right to be richer than Croesus, and he wants to make sure that we'll be punitively taxed if we ever get to his level.

I'll admit it. My concern isn't just for the rich. If you haven't started your 2010 Federal taxes yet, you may not have noticed that AMT is still there. Alternative Minimum Tax was devised against 16,000 of the richest tax payers, to make sure that they paid "their fair share." Because it wasn't revised or eliminated, the trigger points now cause AMT to potentially apply to millions of not-quite-that-rich tax payers, including some not-rich-at-all ones. It if funny how the definition for "rich" can fluctuate, once glass has been broken in attacking them. The simple fact is that more than half of this country don't pay taxes. Some, because they make less than the minimums set in the tax code. Others don't pay because special provisions have been written into the tax code just for them. Others simply don't pay and have enough friends in high places to get away with it. It is my belief that if everyone in this country paid taxes according to the basic tax code that we already have, our National debt could be significantly reduced.

So my personal defense of the rich is not based on finances but principals. I believe that I'm entitled to what I earn. I cannot feel that way about myself without extending the same principal to others, regardless of their income. It is the aberrations in our indefensible Federal tax code that allow Warren Buffet to pay fewer taxes than his secretary. A flat tax would take care of a lot of these problems.

chasfm11 wrote:It if funny how the definition for "rich" can fluctuate, once glass has been broken in attacking them.

I thing that this is at the base of the question of the original post. Many people think that a rich person is someone who makes more money than they do.

WildBill wrote:Many people think that a rich person is someone who makes more money than they do.

Funny thing - a lot of "rich" people (in this case, I use rich as meaning makes lots of money) have a scary-low net worth, because even though they earn a lot, they spend like crazy, often getting in debt up to their eyeballs. Doesn't seem like a good way to live, by my measure. But I'm just someone who pays off my credit cards in full every month and has only one mortgage (with consistently decreasing principle balance) on my house.

LikesShinyThings wrote: But I'm just someone who pays off my credit cards in full every month and has only one mortgage (with consistently decreasing principle balance) on my house.

Tsk, tsk. Someone else who didn't get the memo. Don't you know that it is the "new" American way to buy a house that you cannot afford and have a mountain of credit card debt so that the government can bailout the banks when you don't pay? How else can we spend ourselves into prosperity?

You'll never get rich enough to have someone else say "you is only in it for the money" the way that you are going.

chasfm11 wrote: Tsk, tsk. Someone else who didn't get the memo. Don't you know that it is the "new" American way to buy a house that you cannot afford and have a mountain of credit card debt so that the government can bailout the banks when you don't pay? How else can we spend ourselves into prosperity?

You'll never get rich enough to have someone else say "you is only in it for the money" the way that you are going.

Sadly, there is far too much truth in what you say. Sometimes I wonder if I'm a fool for being responsible with my money. I mean, seems like those who fail to manage their finances properly are constantly getting more and more money from Uncle Sugar, while Uncle Sugar continues to put his hand further and further into my wallet. I'm not quite to that "Atlas Shrugged" moment yet, but I am starting to think about it more. Darn early training in responsibility is awful darn hard to throw off.

LikesShinyThings wrote:

chasfm11 wrote: Tsk, tsk. Someone else who didn't get the memo. Don't you know that it is the "new" American way to buy a house that you cannot afford and have a mountain of credit card debt so that the government can bailout the banks when you don't pay? How else can we spend ourselves into prosperity?

You'll never get rich enough to have someone else say "you is only in it for the money" the way that you are going.

Sadly, there is far too much truth in what you say. Sometimes I wonder if I'm a fool for being responsible with my money. I mean, seems like those who fail to manage their finances properly are constantly getting more and more money from Uncle Sugar, while Uncle Sugar continues to put his hand further and further into my wallet. I'm not quite to that "Atlas Shrugged" moment yet, but I am starting to think about it more. Darn early training in responsibility is awful darn hard to throw off.

Don't feel alone. There are lots of people like you and I who learned such values early in life. I'm not sure what our parents did correctly that messed up on but our own kids did not learn those same lessons as well. I suspect that some of it comes from not having a choice but to learn then. My first real job was teaching school and, unlike today in teacher unions, starting teachers then were barely above the poverty level. After we were married, we worked hard for each small step up the ladder of success. I didn't have a Dave Ramsey book to read but somehow figured out to do exactly what he advocates. I've given copies of Ramsey's books out to try to help others understand that it doesn't have to be the way that is generally advocated of "spend all of mine and then tax others to get more."

The fact is that no one can protect us from our bad choices. A friend didn't go to the doctor for 30 years and now has terminal prostate cancer. No amount of heroic medicine is going to correct the problem. The same is true financially. The three little pigs story and the one about the grasshopper and the ant are more than just children' tales. If we can stop our government from trying to artificially adjust the reality on which those stories are based, a lot more people for generations to come will live better. When the rich get overtaxed, sooner rather than later, there are not enough rich to carry the burden anymore. Want proof? Look at the 2010 Census and compare Texas and NY for population change.