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The Annoyed Man wrote:Mr. mountain, meet Mr. Molehill.

I show them my receipt, yeah, the one with 49 items on it, and they make a 1.5 second show of looking at it, mark it with their yellow marker, and I'm on my way. I couldn't care less If they know what I bought, or what they think about it. They're just trying to do their low-paying jobs, it's no skin off my nose, and I've got much bigger fish to fry.

It seems like a pretty picayune thing to get in a lather over.

, I remember an old sort of expression to the tune of, "...majoring in minors...". Would that apply in this instance?

What TAM said above; if it bothers you that much, don't go back. Geeez!

...McKnife...your post raised the question I asked...your comment was specific with regard to handcuffing and being walked to the security office...so my question is NOT "getting too specific"....and the points to this point are all related to the OP pretty closely...

speedsix wrote:...McKnife...your post raised the question I asked...your comment was specific with regard to handcuffing and being walked to the security office...so my question is NOT "getting too specific"....and the points to this point are all related to the OP pretty closely...

You are correct that I commented on suspects being handcuffed by the retailer when detained, however, you are assuming that they are handcuffing a suspect complying with the retailers detainment. I never specified whether the suspect was compliant or not in my comment, which is why I said you were being too specific.

I can tell you that if I am ever detained by a non-leo, I will physically resist to no end. In cases like this, cuffs are required. In the few cases I've witnessed, only youth/teens were compliant with a retailers detainment.

Most of the detainments I've seen resulted in the suspects being approached, running, being tackled before exiting, cuffed, and escorted to the security office while waiting for police.

I would also like to note that on several occasions, especially during Holidays, the receipt-markers line to exit some stores took longer than the checkout line. I simply walk passed them all avoiding any further hassle.

I don't really make an issue of it. I won't stand in line to be screened to leave. I won't make a public scene either. Nor will I slow down on my walk out...but I've never made a big scene of it, nor have I ever really been challenged.

karl wrote:I've never had a receipt checker paw through my bags. And I believe it is quite a leap from this policy to a full search of a vehicle or person. They're asking you to prove you purchased the goods you have, and in my experience it doesn't happen that often (Sam's etc. are exceptions).

I thought about that for a second..and something stuck in my craw here. Perhaps I'm just contrary. As soon as the purchase transaction is complete, the stuff in your shopping bag (i.e. in the Fry's bag) ceases to be "merchandise" and becomes "personal property." So if you let them look through the bags of (now) "personal property" that were "merchandise" a few minutes ago...well, haven't they just pawed through your bags? Somehow it seems there's a difference between that and going through your wife's purse, but not really...not at the core of the issue. And I'd bet there's not a legal distinction post-transaction either.

There. That ought to stir up some thoughts... :)

IANAL. Just a contrary guy!

Big smile, "No thanks, have a great day!", and keep walking. My "Mr. Nice" has been known to turn to "Mr. Nasty" even on the sweet little ol gramma at the door if she tries to push it.

In Texas, if they believe they have the right to detain me, they're free to try it. Might not turn out good for them since I'm not a thief and won't be treated as one.

Sam's, yeah, I show my receipt because it's the membership agreement, but it's stupid and does nothing except let the checker mark the receipt with a hiliter to keep someone from going out with more stuff on the same receipt.

McKnife wrote:

speedsix wrote:...McKnife...your post raised the question I asked...your comment was specific with regard to handcuffing and being walked to the security office...so my question is NOT "getting too specific"....and the points to this point are all related to the OP pretty closely...

You are correct that I commented on suspects being handcuffed by the retailer when detained, however, you are assuming that they are handcuffing a suspect complying with the retailers detainment. I never specified whether the suspect was compliant or not in my comment, which is why I said you were being too specific.

I can tell you that if I am ever detained by a non-leo, I will physically resist to no end. In cases like this, cuffs are required. In the few cases I've witnessed, only youth/teens were compliant with a retailers detainment.

Most of the detainments I've seen resulted in the suspects being approached, running, being tackled before exiting, cuffed, and escorted to the security office while waiting for police.

"Texas has "Shopkeepers Privilege" -- the right to detain anyone they think could be stealing and whatnot. But, can you imagine being held against your will and utterly embarrassed when a retailer decides to detain you by handcuffing and walking you to the security office? What if their suspicions are wrong and you have committed no crime. Oopsy -- can't just say sorry. You were unlawfully restrained and falsely accused. There can be a whole slew of other criminal and civil charges depending on the specifics."

...nothing in your post suggested resisting or violence...just the above...suggesting compliance ...but it sounds like your mind is made up to fight 'em...so...my point to you is that YOU turned over the rock, then chided ME for commenting on the snake under it...not necessary or polite...

...in over two years of shoplifting security averaging 30 hours a week, and 5 years of retail experience, I only had to physically struggle with one person...and she was deranged...had just been let out...so my experience is somewhat different from yours...and maybe too specific...

Freedom is not a one way street. If I want to open a store and require my customers to "dance a jig" before they leave,'i should be able to. In the same respect you should be able to refuse to shop there. If you don't like Wall-Marx or Sam's Coup (which I don't) don't shop there (which I don't).

McKnife wrote:

speedsix wrote:
...can you cite for us the law that allows a citizen shopkeeper to handcuff a customer and force him to go to a security office in Texas??? I know they can detain you, but that's a bit much...and I'll have to read it in law before letting a civilian handcuff and search/disarm me...haven't heard of that one...that's a lot more than detaining...I'd want a sworn peace officer to do that...

Tex. Civ. Prac. & Rem. Code Ann. § 124.001 (West 2005)

The "shopkeeper's privilege" expressly grants an employee the authority of law to detain a customer to investigate the ownership of property in a reasonable manner and for a reasonable period of time if the employee has a reasonable belief that the customer has stolen or is attempting to steal store merchandise.

[added by me] - Reasonable standards for detainment - Handcuffs, Arms/Legs, Physical presence or even simply vocalizing applies.

They may be, but the person standing at the door checking receipts doesn't have the slightest idea if I have stolen anything.

if the employee has a reasonable belief that the customer has stolen or is attempting to steal store merchandise.

I have just come from their registers where their employee checked all the items and put them into their bag. If I have stolen something it is not in the bag. It has been quite a while since anyone has asked to see my receipt, even at Best Buy, especially the way they have their check out area set up now.

karl wrote:I've never had a receipt checker paw through my bags. And I believe it is quite a leap from this policy to a full search of a vehicle or person. They're asking you to prove you purchased the goods you have, and in my experience it doesn't happen that often (Sam's etc. are exceptions).

I have had a Sam's Club employee paw through my basket, at which point I filed a complaint with the manager because they were touching my personal property without my permission, and I had the receipt to show it was mine. The manager decided to take the employee's side that she was just moving items so she could count, even though he did not witness the action, so I attempted to escalate, and was told there was no path for escalation. A letter stating same to Sam's Club elicited an apologetic letter in return and promise that they would update and retrain their employees.

So.. what's the best was to deescalate a shoplifting accusation from a shopkeeper while carrying?..

I'm certainly not going to stand for anyone putting hands on me and no way am I "going to the security office" if I haven't stolen anything..

If a shopkeeper believed I had stolen something, I suppose I'd not complain too much about them searching my bag, if they were polite and professional about it. But being asked to search my person, especially when CHL... Recipe for a headache.

Any of you store security folks have a suggestion on how to handle this?

I suppose I'd refuse the body search and refuse the walk to the security office, but very politely offer to wait for an officer to show up as if it doesn't bother me. But no way am I going to be put in cuffs and/or "taken" anywhere without resisting.

Where's the line here?
How's best to deescalate?

RoyGBiv wrote:So.. what's the best was to deescalate a shoplifting accusation from a shopkeeper while carrying?..

I'm certainly not going to stand for anyone putting hands on me and no way am I "going to the security office" if I haven't stolen anything..

If a shopkeeper believed I had stolen something, I suppose I'd not complain too much about them searching my bag, if they were polite and professional about it. But being asked to search my person, especially when CHL... Recipe for a headache.

Any of you store security folks have a suggestion on how to handle this?

I suppose I'd refuse the body search and refuse the walk to the security office, but very politely offer to wait for an officer to show up as if it doesn't bother me. But no way am I going to be put in cuffs and/or "taken" anywhere without resisting.

Where's the line here?
How's best to deescalate?

Just keep walking. If they stand in your way, say "excuse me" and walk around. Walk through them if they make it necessary. I see no cause for any sort violent action at that point. Of course if they grab you, it changes from "a shoplifting accusation" to "assault and battery", and my behavior would change to meet the threat.

I doubt that ignoring their shoplifting accusation would lead to deescalation.

RoyGBiv wrote:I doubt that ignoring their shoplifting accusation would lead to deescalation.

It always has for me. I've never been followed out of the store. In fact, I've never had them try to get in my way (I mean, they'll approach as anyone would, and I'll alter course a little, but they don't try to jump in front of me). So in my experience, it works every time.

Are you talking about "receipt checking"? I suppose I'm a bit off topic, specifically referring to "shoplifting"...
If a merchant thinks you've stolen something (for example, maybe your odd movements to keep your weapon concealed while shopping for clothing at Kohl's caused the in-store security folks to believe that you had stolen something) I don't think they will be so casual about allowing you to walk past..