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The Annoyed Man wrote:Also, I assume that the "perpetually perturbed band member" would be moi?

Oldgringo wrote:If a church is big and conspicuous enough to need security guards, it's too big and conspicuous for me.

Anybody remember the hymn, "The Little Brown Church in the Dell"?

My rule of thumb has been that:
- I want a church small enough for the pastor to know my name, my family, and what's going on in our lives
- I want a church small enough that I can call up that pastor and meet him for lunch some time in the next few weeks

fickman wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:Also, I assume that the "perpetually perturbed band member" would be moi?

Oldgringo wrote:If a church is big and conspicuous enough to need security guards, it's too big and conspicuous for me.

Anybody remember the hymn, "The Little Brown Church in the Dell"?

My rule of thumb has been that:
- I want a church small enough for the pastor to know my name, my family, and what's going on in our lives
- I want a church small enough that I can call up that pastor and meet him for lunch some time in the next few weeks

I know a church in Brownwood where you could call the preacher that morn and take him to the range

Morning guys. I have a question and cant find the answer and I have been waiting on a reply from the State for a while. Our church meets in a high school auditorium on Sunday mornings. I know the law clearly states no guns in schools. I'm thinking this still applies to church on Sunday in a school....thoughts?

Hennessy82 wrote:Morning guys. I have a question and cant find the answer and I have been waiting on a reply from the State for a while. Our church meets in a high school auditorium on Sunday mornings. I know the law clearly states no guns in schools. I'm thinking this still applies to church on Sunday in a school....thoughts?

That's been the general consensus on this forum. . . that's not a test case anybody wants to be a part of. Hopefully we can get the law clarified in the next session.

Oldgringo wrote:Anybody remember the hymn, "The Little Brown Church in the Dell"?

I remember The Farmer In the Dell, does that count?

fickman wrote:My rule of thumb has been that:
- I want a church small enough for the pastor to know my name, my family, and what's going on in our lives
- I want a church small enough that I can call up that pastor and meet him for lunch some time in the next few weeks

That's true of all of the churches I've attended as an adult, but probably only because I usually end up on the production team, with two notable exceptions...

First, Fellowship Bible Church North in Plano, TX (the second biggest church I've attended, now named Chase Oaks Church). At the time, the senior pastor was Gene Getz, and, for no special reason that I could figure out, he knew my family by name. When I came back to Dallas to attend UTD after we had moved away over a year earlier, he said it was good to see me again and wanted to know how my parents (by name, again) were doing and whether or not they liked living in San Francisco. And as far as I could tell, this experience was not unique to me, and I have no clue how he kept track of so many people. I did serve on the production team there, but this was well before that started.

Second, Ed Dobson, when he was the senior pastor of Calvary Church in Grand Rapids, MI (by far the biggest church at which my family have been members), was like that as well. I don't think he always remembered all our names right away, but we hadn't lived in Grand Rapids since I think 1989 or something and we'd just show up every few years around christmas because we were in town visiting family. There were some stretches in there, too, to the point that I almost didn't recognize him once, yet he still remembered us and I have no idea why. (I doubt I could've scheduled a lunch with him with just two week's notice, though.)

Maybe my mom or dad have been more involved in the churches we've attended than I've been led to believe...

We have two security personnel (off duty cops) every Sunday morning; we are also in the process of assembling a 'safety' team, both armed and unarmed.

I have no reason to inform the two security cops UNTIL we have the team certified and in place which should be within the next 2 months. At that time, we will inform them of who is and who isn't armed.

They really have no need to know unless and until a situation arises that would require us to identify ourselves

At my church, Rumor has it,

If your wearing a suit, you're armed, If it's polo, you're not.

And don't even try to get a seat in the back row, there are 2 big guys in bowling shirts who have taken ownership.

First you are not security. If you are your CHL is not valid for that function. If something goes down are you going to jump up with gun in hand yelling something link drop it. You have paid professionals to take the risk. My CHL is to protect me mad mine. I attend a smaller church and any given Sunday there are 3 to 7 guns in the service. My weapon may come out but still be concealed if something goes down. If the get what they want and leave good. If they start shooting I would feel that me and mine are in danger.

priusron wrote:First you are not security. If you are your CHL is not valid for that function. If something goes down are you going to jump up with gun in hand yelling something link drop it. You have paid professionals to take the risk. My CHL is to protect me mad mine. I attend a smaller church and any given Sunday there are 3 to 7 guns in the service. My weapon may come out but still be concealed if something goes down. If the get what they want and leave good. If they start shooting I would feel that me and mine are in danger.

Too many variables to have it as cut and dried as you present. Remember totality of situation.

Like some of the previous posters, I attend a large church with a pretty well-organized security team. Security knows me because I have played in the band for years, so they know that I'm "okay" to be on the stage and back in the "secure area" where the pastors and guest speakers come and go. Some of those guests have been prominent elected officials, but even on a regular day, security is still very protective of the senior pastor. This makes things kind of interesting.

Considering all of this, I've also wondered whether it would be wise to discuss my CHL carry with anyone on the security team. If the unthinkable ever happened, I wouldn't want them to mistake me for the bad guy. But in the final analysis, I've decided to keep it quiet. As previously mentioned, there are many decision makers in a large church. Most of them would probably be indifferent, but I'd wager dollars to donuts that at least one would reflexively tell me not to carry, thereby constituting verbal notice. At that point I would need a higher-level decision maker to overrule that with an affirmative "yes", and that would probably be a lot tougher.

If, God forbid, we ever do have an active shooter, I am pretty sure our security team is well-armed and able to handle the situation. Therefore, I would probably not draw my weapon unless (1) the shooter was very close by and caused an immediate threat to me or my family, or (2) it became apparent that security was not as armed or prepared as I thought, and I had to intervene.

jeffrw wrote:Like some of the previous posters, I attend a large church with a pretty well-organized security team. Security knows me because I have played in the band for years, so they know that I'm "okay" to be on the stage and back in the "secure area" where the pastors and guest speakers come and go. Some of those guests have been prominent elected officials, but even on a regular day, security is still very protective of the senior pastor. This makes things kind of interesting.

Considering all of this, I've also wondered whether it would be wise to discuss my CHL carry with anyone on the security team. If the unthinkable ever happened, I wouldn't want them to mistake me for the bad guy. But in the final analysis, I've decided to keep it quiet. As previously mentioned, there are many decision makers in a large church. Most of them would probably be indifferent, but I'd wager dollars to donuts that at least one would reflexively tell me not to carry, thereby constituting verbal notice. At that point I would need a higher-level decision maker to overrule that with an affirmative "yes", and that would probably be a lot tougher.

If, God forbid, we ever do have an active shooter, I am pretty sure our security team is well-armed and able to handle the situation. Therefore, I would probably not draw my weapon unless (1) the shooter was very close by and caused an immediate threat to me or my family, or (2) it became apparent that security was not as armed or prepared as I thought, and I had to intervene.

As a minister, I can tell you how it would play in most churches to ~ask~..... SOMEONE is going to have a problem with it, and there is a tendency to defer to the weaker. "Well, if bro Joe has a problem with it, lets not for his conscience." Keep quiet and carry on!

God knows I carry. I trust Him to tell anyone else at the church who needs to know.

smoothoperator wrote:God knows I carry. I trust Him to tell anyone else at the church who needs to know.

Reminds me of joke of 3 preachers would meet at the park every Mon morn to discuss their Sunday. One asked "How do you fellows decide how much of the collection to keep and how much goes to God?" First minister said "I draw a circle in the parking lot, I stand in the circle. I throw the collection in the air, and whatever falls in the circle goes to God, outside the circle I keep." Next preacher said "I do similar... I throw it in the air, and whatever falls OUTSIDE the circle goes to God." Third one, televangelist, said "I draw my circle...I stand in the circle...and throw collection in the air. I figure whatever money God wants He can grab while it's in the air."

wgoforth wrote:

jeffrw wrote:Like some of the previous posters, I attend a large church with a pretty well-organized security team. Security knows me because I have played in the band for years, so they know that I'm "okay" to be on the stage and back in the "secure area" where the pastors and guest speakers come and go. Some of those guests have been prominent elected officials, but even on a regular day, security is still very protective of the senior pastor. This makes things kind of interesting.

Considering all of this, I've also wondered whether it would be wise to discuss my CHL carry with anyone on the security team. If the unthinkable ever happened, I wouldn't want them to mistake me for the bad guy. But in the final analysis, I've decided to keep it quiet. As previously mentioned, there are many decision makers in a large church. Most of them would probably be indifferent, but I'd wager dollars to donuts that at least one would reflexively tell me not to carry, thereby constituting verbal notice. At that point I would need a higher-level decision maker to overrule that with an affirmative "yes", and that would probably be a lot tougher.

If, God forbid, we ever do have an active shooter, I am pretty sure our security team is well-armed and able to handle the situation. Therefore, I would probably not draw my weapon unless (1) the shooter was very close by and caused an immediate threat to me or my family, or (2) it became apparent that security was not as armed or prepared as I thought, and I had to intervene.

As a minister, I can tell you how it would play in most churches to ~ask~..... SOMEONE is going to have a problem with it, and there is a tendency to defer to the weaker. "Well, if bro Joe has a problem with it, lets not for his conscience." Keep quiet and carry on!

OTOH, I don't want to be perceived as one of the participants if something bad goes down. I don't know if anyone else in our church is armed and a couple of discrete inquiries with trusted fellow parishioners have suggested that the subject of security, especially for services has not come up much.

Let's suppose that an outsider walks into the church with a gun. Let's also suppose that one of my fellow church members is an LEO or CHL . Without either of us knowing about the other, both of us draw and engage the outsider. Then what? With the threat hopefully neutralized, my next move almost anyplace else would likely be to turn in the direction of the other gunshots. I'm afraid that a LEO/CHL might do the same toward me. Things could get messy from there.

Just sayin'

chasfm11 wrote:Let's suppose that an outsider walks into the church with a gun. Let's also suppose that one of my fellow church members is an LEO or CHL . Without either of us knowing about the other, both of us draw and engage the outsider. Then what? With the threat hopefully neutralized, my next move almost anyplace else would likely be to turn in the direction of the other gunshots. I'm afraid that a LEO/CHL might do the same toward me. Things could get messy from there.

That's a legitimate concern, although one hardly unique to the church environment. A similar chain of events could unfold at a shopping mall, your place of business, or while stopping at H.E.B. for a gallon of milk on the way home.