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seamusTX wrote:Torturing people would accomplish what, exactly, besides reverting to the 15th century?

- Jim

Dave2 wrote:I do think people underestimate the deterrent effects of public punishment, though.

seamusTX wrote:

Dave2 wrote:I do think people underestimate the deterrent effects of public punishment, though.

Every place that has or had public hangings, beheading, burning at the stake, drawing and quartering, etc., throughout history had a lot of them. It becomes a mania, and eventually mob rule.

China executes upwards of 5,000 people a year. If there were a deterrent effect, they would need only one every few years.

What I do think might work is caning, as they do in Singapore. However, that works only in societies where what they call "face" is a factor. Here we have people competing to go on TV and make fools of themselves in a thousand ways. And that is not counting politicians.

- Jim

Beiruty wrote:China murder rate is 1: 100,000. US is like 4.8:100,000.

seamusTX wrote:

A long drop with a sudden stop in his home neighborhood (maybe even televised) should drive the message home.

As long as it is attached to his family jewels the first time. Brings a whole new level the game hangman.

Enjoy the joviality, but the death penalty or torture has never worked as a deterrent, doesn't work, and never will.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:the death penalty or torture has never worked as a deterrent, doesn't work, and never will.

seamusTX wrote:... but the death penalty or torture has never worked as a deterrent, doesn't work, and never will.

This paper merges a state-level panel data set that includes crime and deterrence measures and state characteristics with information on all death sentences handed out in the United States between 1977 and 1997. Because the exact month and year of each execution and removal from death row can be identified, they are matched with state-level criminal activity in the relevant time frame. Controlling for a variety of state characteristics, the paper investigates the impact of the execution rate, commutation and removal rates, homicide arrest rate, sentencing rate, imprisonment rate, and prison death rate on the rate of homicide. The results show that each additional execution decreases homicides by about five, and each additional commutation increases homicides by the same amount, while an additional removal from death row generates one additional murder.

• Each execution prevents 5 murders from occurring.
• Each commutation increases murders by 5.
• Removal from death row to life in prison increases murders by 1.

Dave2 wrote:Speak for yourself. Fear of consequences have kept me in line more than once.

seamusTX wrote:

Dave2 wrote:Speak for yourself. Fear of consequences have kept me in line more than once.

That principle work for rational decisions like paying taxes or getting your car inspected. It obviously does not work for the millions of people who are in prison for drug offenses, smuggling, property crimes, violent crimes, and heinous acts like rape and child molesting.

Most people live law-abiding lives because they have a conscience, which is formed by parental upbringing at an early age—not because they are afraid of being punished for immoral acts.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:Most people live law-abiding lives because they have a conscience, which is formed by parental upbringing at an early age—not because they are afraid of being punished for immoral acts.

- Jim

Jumping Frog wrote:

seamusTX wrote:... but the death penalty or torture has never worked as a deterrent, doesn't work, and never will.

I absolutely believe there is a deterrent effect.

But before I get to a general societal deterrence, I'll point out it deters the executed criminal himself from murdering again. The "just keep them locked up" argument doesn't acknowledge that just because they are in prison does not mean they are no longer a danger to society. This is one of the reasons I am for the timely execution of death row prisoners.

Prisoner-on-prisoner violence is an everyday fact in today's prison. Prisoners regularly injure correction officers, and there are also instances of rape and murder of corrections officers. Even the rest of society isn't safe. There are enough well-documented cases of gang leaders operating their business and having hits performed from inside prison that the Discovery Channel has made documentaries showing how they even operate from within the so-called supermax prisons.

As far as general deterrence goes, I do believe there is a deterrent effect and the lives saved justify the punishment.

In the study GETTING OFF DEATH ROW: COMMUTED SENTENCES AND THE DETERRENT EFFECT OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT from The Journal of Law & Economics at the University of Chicago Law School, there was a definite deterrent effect found. From the abstract:

This paper merges a state-level panel data set that includes crime and deterrence measures and state characteristics with information on all death sentences handed out in the United States between 1977 and 1997. Because the exact month and year of each execution and removal from death row can be identified, they are matched with state-level criminal activity in the relevant time frame. Controlling for a variety of state characteristics, the paper investigates the impact of the execution rate, commutation and removal rates, homicide arrest rate, sentencing rate, imprisonment rate, and prison death rate on the rate of homicide. The results show that each additional execution decreases homicides by about five, and each additional commutation increases homicides by the same amount, while an additional removal from death row generates one additional murder.

Really pause to think about this for a moment:

• Each execution prevents 5 murders from occurring.
• Each commutation increases murders by 5.
• Removal from death row to life in prison increases murders by 1.

The study shows that deterrent effect even when these people are sitting in prison for 8-10-15 years before being executed. I have to believe that cutting the wait time down to 6 months and performing the executions publicly would both serve to increase the deterrent effect on the number of homicides prevented. I am all for going back to public hangings in the town square.

seamusTX wrote:

Dave2 wrote:I do think people underestimate the deterrent effects of public punishment, though.

Every place that has or had public hangings, beheading, burning at the stake, drawing and quartering, etc., throughout history had a lot of them. It becomes a mania, and eventually mob rule.

China executes upwards of 5,000 people a year. If there were a deterrent effect, they would need only one every few years.

What I do think might work is caning, as they do in Singapore. However, that works only in societies where what they call "face" is a factor. Here we have people competing to go on TV and make fools of themselves in a thousand ways. And that is not counting politicians.

- Jim

Vol Texan wrote:

koolaid wrote:
Comparing against other countries doesn't really tell you much because of the other factors involved.

For instance, Sweden has no death penalty and a murder rate of 1 per 100k.

I'm sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree. I moved back from Singapore in 2011, and they have a (well-deserved) reputation for being one of the best (safest, cleanest, best opportunity) places to live abroad. They do have the death penalty, and between the years of 1994 & 1999, they had the highest per-capital rate of execution in the world.

It paid off, and they no longer have to execute so many people to get their point across: if you kill people, if you kidnap people, or if you smuggle drugs into their country (among other things), it will be a career-limiting decision for you. They don't care if you're local or foreign, or if the victim is local or foreign - they apply their rules quite evenly across the board.

And they don't do it nicely - no needles in the arm for the convicted. It's a rope for you, and you only get one appeal if you're convicted. If that appeal fails, then there's always an appeal to the president, but that doesn't have a good track record.

Under Section 316 of the Criminal Procedure Code:

"When any person is sentenced to death, the sentence shall direct that he shall be hanged by the neck till he is dead but shall not state the place where nor the time when the sentence is to be carried out."

Hangings always take place at dawn on Friday and are by the long drop method developed in the United Kingdom by William Marwood. The executioner refers to the Official Table of Drops. The government have said that they:

"…had previously studied the different methods of execution and found no reason to change from the current method used, that is, by hanging."

Neither persons under the age of 18 at the time of their offence nor pregnant women can be sentenced to death.

Capital cases are heard by a single judge in the High Court of Singapore. After conviction and sentencing, the sentenced has one appeal to the Court of Appeal of Singapore. If the appeal fails, the final recourse rests with the President of Singapore, who has the power to grant clemency on the advice of the Cabinet. The exact number of successful appeals is unknown. Poh Kay Keong had his conviction overturned after the Court found his statement to a Central Narcotics Bureau officer was made under duress. Successful clemency applications are thought to be even rarer. Since 1965, the President's clemency has been granted six times. The last clemency was in May 1998 when Mathavakannan Kalimuthu received pardon from President Ong Teng Cheong with the sentence commuted to life imprisonment.

The condemned are given notice at least four days before execution. In the case of foreigners who have been sentenced to death, their families and diplomatic missions/embassies are given one to two weeks' notice.

Amnesty International reports that death row inmates are housed in cells of roughly 3 sqm (32 sq ft). Walls make up three sides, while the fourth is vertical bars. They are equipped with a toilet, sleeping mat and a bucket for washing. Exercise is permitted twice a day for half an hour at a time. Four days before the execution, the condemned is allowed to watch television or listen to the radio. Special meals of their choice are also cooked, if within the prison budget. Visitation rights are increased from one 20 minute visit per week to a maximum of four hours each day,[8] though no physical contact is allowed with any visitors.

Sure, they don't allow guns for private citizens. Even the police check their guns at the station when they go home at night!?! That being said, the threat of punishment was a VERY effective deterrent, and I never felt unsafe when in-country. My wife & 2-year old daughter could walk around in some of the sketchiest parts of town, and I'd never fear for their safety. It's inbred into their society that they don't accept crime, and they REALLY don't accept crime against expatriates. Certainly, many of the locals talked about how oppressive their society is (but there's more to that story than just 'no guns allowed'), but it was a great place to live as an expat.

Back here, both my wife and I are CHL holders, and we wouldn't dare leave the house without. We do love America (I'm a veteran, former LEO, Eagle Scout, etc / my beautiful wife is a newly minted US citizen for two years now) and the freedoms we have here, but we definitely appreciate the general feeling of comfort that we had knowing that they not only had the death penalty, but were not afraid to use it. It's that last part that we feel is lacking here in the US. If we were ever to return to that standard (and do so more publicly as Beiruty suggests below), I believe that it would become a much more effective deterrent.

Beiruty wrote:It is nice to compare the murder rate between KSA and USA. Both have death penalty, however, the former execute in public by sword (even kids and teens can watch said execution), the later behind dark curtains where no one see the execution but a handful of "witnesses". Why compare, cause Antis would claim that the execution has no deterrence for murder. Patently false.