Body camera view of leo shooting

[Jaguar]

It's clear from your postings you have an ingrained distrust of authority that colors your perception and responses here.
Makes it very difficult to have a rational discussion on any trigger topic.

I didn't realize I made it difficult to have discussions here, I probably need to quit posting if that's the case.

I guess the point I was trying to make is if anyone finds themselves in a defensive shooting situation, do as this cop was advised even though they won't advise you the same way.

Policy may direct a officer involved in a shooting be segregated immediately..
Officer not emotionally involved may realize friends, and co workers may say erroneous emotional based things that could color a investigation, so smartly remind the officer to shut up.

The fact an officer attempts to elicit information from a non LEO citizen after a shooting is neither negative, derogatory or contrary to normal, fair police procedure.. If a citizen states he does not want to speak, that's fine as well... but no harm no foul in asking

So friends and co-workers help prevent friends and coworkers from saying erroneous and emotional things that could land them in jail, then two hours later they attempt to elicit erroneous and emotional things from a stranger who has a different job.

To all my friends here at TexasCHLfroum; if you find yourself in a defensive shooting situation, "not a word."

Adieu

[C-dub]

Three seconds before your first shot can be quite a length of time. I don't really know what my draw time is for any of the IDPA events I've done, but at a recent Ruger rimfire match I was able to shoot 5 targets in less than 4 seconds. In this kind of match, one does start from the low ready, but still. If the BG in this video already had his gun out, as is evident from the officer seeing it first and then shooting, what probably gave him the advantage was pushing the door back into the guy. It may have pushed the BG off balance enough to prevent him from bringing his gun up on target. However, I think the officer probably could have begun shooting quicker, but wanted to create a little bit of distance first.

[baldeagle]

Three seconds before your first shot can be quite a length of time. I don't really know what my draw time is for any of the IDPA events I've done, but at a recent Ruger rimfire match I was able to shoot 5 targets in less than 4 seconds. In this kind of match, one does start from the low ready, but still. If the BG in this video already had his gun out, as is evident from the officer seeing it first and then shooting, what probably gave him the advantage was pushing the door back into the guy. It may have pushed the BG off balance enough to prevent him from bringing his gun up on target. However, I think the officer probably could have begun shooting quicker, but wanted to create a little bit of distance first.

Officers are required to use holsters with retention. IIRC the average draw time from retention is two seconds (and that's when you've been told to draw), so three seconds isn't that far off. Besides, in an IDPA match you know you're fixin' to fire and time is critical. In this situation the officer talks to the driver then says he has to go back to his car and boom, a gun appears. First he has to take defensive action by closing the door and creating distance and angle between himself and the suspect. Then he has to draw and begin firing. To do that in three seconds is pretty impressive, in my opinion.

As to the number of shots he fired, if you look at the car after the shooting stopped, there were a number of holes in the car (I counted eight.)

As to not changing magazines, he may not have been aware that he emptied his or it may not have been empty. Depends on what size mag he had.

[E.Marquez]

I didn't realize I made it difficult to have discussions here, I probably need to quit posting if that's the case.

It does, and yet, no need to stop posting, it is just my perception of your responses. I'll try and read your posts at face value, without my inclusion of implied or insinuated content

I guess the point I was trying to make is if anyone finds themselves in a defensive shooting situation, do as this cop was advised even though they won't advise you the same way.

Good advise, for one and all.
And if you find your self being investigated for a murder or homicide, you too should listen to friends, co workers or those versed in policy (lawyers) telling you to shut up.. Just like the officer should.

[C-dub]

Three seconds before your first shot can be quite a length of time. I don't really know what my draw time is for any of the IDPA events I've done, but at a recent Ruger rimfire match I was able to shoot 5 targets in less than 4 seconds. In this kind of match, one does start from the low ready, but still. If the BG in this video already had his gun out, as is evident from the officer seeing it first and then shooting, what probably gave him the advantage was pushing the door back into the guy. It may have pushed the BG off balance enough to prevent him from bringing his gun up on target. However, I think the officer probably could have begun shooting quicker, but wanted to create a little bit of distance first.

Officers are required to use holsters with retention. IIRC the average draw time from retention is two seconds (and that's when you've been told to draw), so three seconds isn't that far off. Besides, in an IDPA match you know you're fixin' to fire and time is critical. In this situation the officer talks to the driver then says he has to go back to his car and boom, a gun appears. First he has to take defensive action by closing the door and creating distance and angle between himself and the suspect. Then he has to draw and begin firing. To do that in three seconds is pretty impressive, in my opinion.

As to the number of shots he fired, if you look at the car after the shooting stopped, there were a number of holes in the car (I counted eight.)

As to not changing magazines, he may not have been aware that he emptied his or it may not have been empty. Depends on what size mag he had.

I think the officer was already suspicious and may have already had his hand on his gun after the car was registered to someone else and the SSN was for a deceased person. I'm not worried about the three seconds in this case because I think it was due to him pushing the door the door closed and backing up before firing. I think had he not done those two things he would have beaten that two second average.

[howdy]

I think the one officer telling the shooting Officer "not a word" is a professional courtesy. I know in the Airline Pilot game, if a pilot is involved in an accident, a fellow pilot is supposed to remind the entire crew to say NOTHING, get the crew to a hotel off the airport, and only tell the company and the union (ALPA in my case) where the crew is. ALPA will then send a Lawyer to talk to the crew and they are not to talk to the company OR the FAA without that Lawyer present. People WANT to talk after a stressfull incident. Look at the Zimmerman trial. It would have been a shorter trial if he would have "lawyered up" and followed their advise from the very beginning.

[CHLLady]

That was just incredible to see. Wow.

I think he did the right thing, his training kicked in for sure. After the fact, we know it was a fake gun, but he did not at the time and reacted incredibly fast.

I agree, she's reminding him to be quiet as a courtesy. As I would if a friend were in this situation also.

The thing that stands out to me is how long it took for backup to arrive. If it had been a stand off, it would have been even more stressful. This is a reminder to me that I may be on my own for a while, stay vigilant and as calm as possible and follow Mr. Ayoob's advice.

[rbwhatever1]

The adrenaline rush elicited by an intense fire fight is like no other. This LEO was definitely in the zone.

Good Shooting Akron LEO!

[jmra]

As to not changing magazines, he may not have been aware that he emptied his or it may not have been empty. Depends on what size mag he had.

The magazine may have been empty but there was a round in the chamber otherwise the slide would have locked back. So he had at least one more round at his disposal.

[jmra]

Question for our LEO members. I have no clue about SOP for traffic stops, but if you knew while you were in your car checking the guys info that he had given you false information and/or the plates didn't match the vehicle wouldn't "best practices" (a term used in my industry) dictate calling for backup at that point? I would think that would be a good indicator that things could go south quickly.

[jmra]

That was just incredible to see. Wow.

I think he did the right thing, his training kicked in for sure. After the fact, we know it was a fake gun, but he did not at the time and reacted incredibly fast.

I agree, she's reminding him to be quiet as a courtesy. As I would if a friend were in this situation also.

The thing that stands out to me is how long it took for backup to arrive. If it had been a stand off, it would have been even more stressful. This is a reminder to me that I may be on my own for a while, stay vigilant and as calm as possible and follow Mr. Ayoob's advice.

I thought backup response time was pretty quick. Unless he requested backup prior to the shooting, the first request is at :45 into the video and he is talking to another officer in person at around 2:15. That's only 90 seconds. Unless he was next door to the police station I'm not sure how they could have gotten there any sooner.

[texanjoker]

Question for our LEO members. I have no clue about SOP for traffic stops, but if you knew while you were in your car checking the guys info that he had given you false information and/or the plates didn't match the vehicle wouldn't "best practices" (a term used in my industry) dictate calling for backup at that point? I would think that would be a good indicator that things could go south quickly.

It is common practice for a 2nd officer to be enroute for any stop until you advise otherwise. All traffic stops have the potential of going sideways and there is no such thing as the media buzz word "routine" traffic stop. I would bet a backup was already enroute, but they take time to get there and this happened pretty fast. On top of that, regular citizens lie to leo's on a daily basis. Switching license plates is quite common to avoid registration issues. The video really wasn't alarming and the guys demeanor wasn't that bad until he said those magic words and produced a gun. Having been there I can relate. You can take all the necessary precautions but sometimes it just happens and you respond. This leo did.

[CHLLady]

That was just incredible to see. Wow.

I think he did the right thing, his training kicked in for sure. After the fact, we know it was a fake gun, but he did not at the time and reacted incredibly fast.

I agree, she's reminding him to be quiet as a courtesy. As I would if a friend were in this situation also.

The thing that stands out to me is how long it took for backup to arrive. If it had been a stand off, it would have been even more stressful. This is a reminder to me that I may be on my own for a while, stay vigilant and as calm as possible and follow Mr. Ayoob's advice.

I thought backup response time was pretty quick. Unless he requested backup prior to the shooting, the first request is at :45 into the video and he is talking to another officer in person at around 2:15. That's only 90 seconds. Unless he was next door to the police station I'm not sure how they could have gotten there any sooner.

You are correct. It really brings it home that you are on your own and seconds count. Be prepared to wait for help.

[BStacks]

I'm not complaining about the number of shots, and while I can't speak for BStacks, I didn't think he was either. What I'm alluding to is the different standards for LEO's and citizens --FOR THE SAME ACTION. You know full well that if a citizen walked by some guy siting in his car in a parking lot who pulled a gun and pointed it at him, and he emptied his gun in the same manner, even if the gun was an actual firearm, the citizen would likely find himself on trial for murder --especially so in places like Travis and Harris county. The DA would say he set out to kill. And btw, I'm not saying that this cop should be tried, or that what he did was wrong either; I'm saying that there is a double standard, and it's just as wrong to charge a citizen in a case like this as it would be to charge the cop.

Thank You.

[Robert*PPS]

Just to clarify my original post. While watching the video, it seemed like alot of time passed before backup arrived, but in actuality, they got there pretty quick. Also, I find the most interesting thing about the "not a word" interaction was that the cop, being trained on such matters, still felt compelled to tell his story. I think that is a natural response. This observation tells me to resist that natural urge to talk at that time.