this kid with road rage tried to fight me today

[The Annoyed Man]

In the Texas self defense statutes, it is important to understand the distinction offered by "presumed reasonable".

First, both Sec. 9.31 and Sec. 9.32 use the phrase "when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary" or "when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary"

So for ambiguous circumstances, it becomes the duty of the defense to explain, demonstrate, and prove why the actor "reasonably believed" force or deadly force was "immediately necessary". If you get into an argument on a street corner that ends up leading to force or deadly force, you better be able to explain why.

However, there are also cases where the actor's actions are "presumed reasonable", meaning there is no longer the duty to prove why the actor "reasonably believed" force or deadly force was "immediately necessary". This is a HUGE point and the practical importance is crucial for every CHL to understand. These should be memorized.

Thank you Jumping Frog for bringing that one up. I've mentioned it a number of times in the past, and completely forgot to in my previous explanation.

The "Reasonableness Argument" is one of the things I love about Texas. Unlike California (regardless of what California law actually says, they treat people who defend themselves as suspicious, and they treat people who defend themselves with a gun as guilty), Texas supports the right of self-defense as a fundamental human right, and thinks that it is entirely reasonable to do so. Of course, the implied corollary is that it views assault as unreasonable. . . . . except in defense of someone else. . . . and further, that it would be unreasonable not to defend one's self.

[Pecos]

What I would do would be to try to go the other way & avoid the dude. I carry my gun on my body even in a car. Get some CHL books by Chris Bird or Mas Ayoob.
Even if he broke the window (especially if he didnt have a weapon) deadly force may not be justified. Firearm come into play as a last resort........
This is all explained in concealed carry books. Hope this helps.

[MechAg94]

What I would do would be to try to go the other way & avoid the dude. I carry my gun on my body even in a car. Get some CHL books by Chris Bird or Mas Ayoob.
Even if he broke the window (especially if he didnt have a weapon) deadly force may not be justified. Firearm come into play as a last resort........
This is all explained in concealed carry books. Hope this helps.

Mas Ayoob has some good stuff, but do remember that his advice is often meant for everyone in the country and/or people in gun UNfirendly states. It is good stuff to keep in mind, but not necessarily specific to Texas law.

I have had people (sometimes kids) get mad at me on the road. I always found just smiling tended to diffuse the issue or at least make them go away. I think none of them were set to physically attack me though.

[JALLEN]

It seems to me that the first thing to do, after the perp has blown off some steam, done his hollering and gesturing, assuming it goes any further, is to get on the phone, with description of the car, color, license plate, etc., your location and an account of what has transpired so far. Everyone encounters these idiots, and almost all the time, they are content to huff and puff and show what ultra super tough guys they are, and that's the end of it.

One advantage of doing this is that if it escalates immediately, it's on tape. You can describe what you are experiencing. If you are, or become, really afraid for your well-being, it will come across on the tape.

If all else fails, you can always shoot him later.

For a new CHL it is hard to keep all this in mind. It requires judgment which requires experience, and you have little or none at that stage in your CHL career. More and better training, reading, questioning, learning, can substitute up to a point and is better than nothing.

[Ameer]

I am new to this forum (this is my first post). I obtained my TX CHL in October and am very new to having a gun in my car (glove box) or on myself. I got my CHL because as a Realtor, I sometimes end up in parts of Houston that are really sketchy, and there have been cases recently where people will call a Realtor to see a property and that RE agent gets robbed.

Today, while I was driving to the gym, some teenage looking kid in a honda pilot was driving erratically and weaving in and out of traffic. I ended up going in the same direction as him, and he stared me down at a stop sign and started putting his hands up with a confrontational gesture. Then he pulled in front of me and threw his car into 'park' and opened his door and got out of his car putting his hands up again. I drove around him. Well, he then jumped back into his car and sped past me sticking his head and arm out of the window suggesting he wanted to fight me and proceeded to the next stop sign and again put his car into park and got out putting his hands up.

I had my .380 in my glove box (locked at the time) and it was pretty intimidating moment so I stopped and put my car into park, put my hazards on, got my firearm out, put a round in the chamber and placed it under my leg. At this point he was still at the stop sign ahead of me suggesting he wanted to fight or something.

My gym (which was my initial destination) was the next block up, so I waited for oncoming traffic to turn left to pull into the parking lot. Meanwhile, he was then at the next stop sign down (one further from the previous stop sign that he was out of his car trying to fight), out of his car, waving at me trying to intimidate me into a fight.

I know that w/ a CHL you're not supposed to pull it in a public area or during a fight and from what I know, you're allowed to use it if your vehicle window is broken by someone while you're in your car (during a robbery or assault).

So my question is: In a situation like this, would I have had to wait for him to try to break my window in order to take any action?

Believe me, shooting someone is the last thing I ever want to do. AND I am glad I turned into my gym to avoid any altercation/confrontation. Eventually I calmed down and thought about what would have happened if I reacted to his idiocy by allowing the situation to escalate. The aftermath/effect if I actually had a broken window and shot him would have not been worth it and my day/month even my 2014 year would have been ruined. As a Realtor, I definitely do not want to end up in the news for shooting someone, especially in a situation like that.

As a chl newbie, I just want to be on the right page so that in a situation like this I don't overreact, and from what I realized today, it's better to avoid using the deadly/lethal force at all costs.

Any advice/input is appreciated as I am trying to learn to do the right thing to avoid situations like this.

That was you? Sorry bro.

[captainkbt]

What I would do would be to try to go the other way & avoid the dude. I carry my gun on my body even in a car. Get some CHL books by Chris Bird or Mas Ayoob.
Even if he broke the window (especially if he didnt have a weapon) deadly force may not be justified. Firearm come into play as a last resort........
This is all explained in concealed carry books. Hope this helps.

Exactly. First one I heard use the actual phrase "last resort". I drill the "last resort" concept into my students head over and over. Always ask yourself BEFORE you pull..."is there another way out?" Never do we want a prosecuting attorney to be asking the question..."could you have placed your vehicle in reverse or turned and avoided the situation?" If the answer is "yes", then you have a serious problem even if you were in fear of your life at that moment. I don't want to gamble my life and future with grand juries, prosecuting attorneys, or juries. I don't think this guys CHL instructor drilled the "last resort" avoidance concept thoroughly enough into his head.

[AdioSS]

..."is there another way out?" ..."could you have placed your vehicle in reverse or turned and avoided the situation?" If the answer is "yes", then you have a serious problem even if you were in fear of your life at that moment...

Yes! Your ~2 ton automobile is a much more dangerous weapon than any handgun. It is also a very good defensive tool. It can put a lot of distance between you & a problem in a hurry. It can also help you get to a location where you would be safer.

Also, the SCCY is basically a copy of the Kel-tec P-11, but with a safety added. Since you have that & the P3AT then I'd suggest you check out thektog.org but say you have a P-11 instead of the SCCY My first pistol was a P-11, & I not only did I learn a lot from that place, but I also found some good gear for it in their Trading Post.

[chasfm11]

..."is there another way out?" ..."could you have placed your vehicle in reverse or turned and avoided the situation?" If the answer is "yes", then you have a serious problem even if you were in fear of your life at that moment...

Yes! Your ~2 ton automobile is a much more dangerous weapon than any handgun. It is also a very good defensive tool. It can put a lot of distance between you & a problem in a hurry. It can also help you get to a location where you would be safer.

Also, the SCCY is basically a copy of the Kel-tec P-11, but with a safety added. Since you have that & the P3AT then I'd suggest you check out thektog.org but say you have a P-11 instead of the SCCY My first pistol was a P-11, & I not only did I learn a lot from that place, but I also found some good gear for it in their Trading Post.

I have another point of view about the value of a vehicle in a road rage incident.

My wife and I were returning to the Dallas area in our 22,000lb RV. As we drove through very heavy traffic on I-35 in Waco, I was nearly side-swiped in the middle on the passenger side by a young woman who was obviously texting while driving. Evasive actions, considering that my vehicle takes up the whole lane and that I was surrounded by cars were very limited. As she got even with my front wheels, I gently tapped the air horn, to remind her that I was there. That set her off. She went into over 5 minutes of absolutely appalling driving, cutting in front of us, slamming on the brakes, etc. I finally was able to switch lanes to try to get away from her and she pulled in ahead of me. When it is safe for me to make a lane change, there is always room to fit a car because of the following distance that I have to leave. There was nothing that I could, no place for me to go because I surely was not going outrun her and the traffic around me prevented me from repeated lane changes to even try. When she brake checked me, I could have easily run right over her small car and she would have been dead. The frame rails on my RV would have squashed her like a bug. And if I had not really been paying attention, I would have. You don't stop 22K worth of RV towing a car in the same space as a passenger vehicle.

Today, I would have my wife on the phone to 911 immediately but at the time this happened, we both were in shock - it was hard to believe it was happening. Who in their right mind woud challenge something that weighs almost 10 times as much as you do? However, I've since talked with OTR truck drivers, several of whom have experienced similar incidents. Brake checking an 80,000lb truck is like loading 4 cylinders of a 5 shot revolver and playing Russian Roulette.

My lesson learned: never underestimate the suicidal aspect of a road rager. But I have no desire to part of that, with a gun or a vehicle if there is any possible way to avoid it. I used to be a little more liberal with my use of the air horn. Now, I'll bet I haven't blown it more than 2 times in the last couple of years and 1,000s of miles of driving. If you think that people drive crazy around a passenger car, you cannot even imagine how bad it gets around an RV. I'm constantly saying "FIDO" (Forget It - Drive on).

[AdioSS]

Yeah, that girl wasn't very smart, or maybe she wanted a lawsuit against you after seeing your RV? I'm guessing the former.
When I said that your car an put a lot of distance, I meant in the case where the other person gets out of their car.
In your case, could you have slowed down to put distance between the two of you? Sure, that ight have caused additional cases of road rage with other drivers, but they could have just gone around you.

[Jose_in_Dallas]

thanks all,

you should have seen me put my car into park, unlock my glovebox, pull out my 380 and chamber a round... it was quite a hassle. LOL. Now that I look back at it, it was very novice and totally unnecessary. The 380 I have is very small so fitting it under my leg was similar to putting a phone under your leg.

I have a small/cheap 9mm (SCCY CPX 2) that I bought for carrying, but at 5'10" - 135lbs, the 9mm is just a little too bulky for me to carry. My 380 is a P3AT and it's not as bulky and noticeable when I have it on myself, I got it because of it's size/weight. The reason I don't always carry it is because I can't take into my office and there are several business that I frequent that display the no firearms signs, so I figure its just better to not carry it unless I see myself going into a sketchy part of town.

Also,
I will check out that website (http://www.corneredcat.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

thanks again

Welcome to the forum (I'm new here myself). There are better options that I think are very comparable to the P3AT such as the Springfield Armory XDs and M&P Shield. Also there are quite a few options for holsters that allow you to quickly take on and off are you might look at other "stealthy" options for keeping it out in the open on the passenger seats such as Wilderness Tactical Safe Packer. Glad everything worked out OK for you.

aus10m,

Welcome to the forum!

Also - congratulations. Overall you did right. You were in a bad situation, you got out without getting hurt, nobody else got hurt, and no legal entanglements. Well done.

+1 to keeping your gun fully loaded (i.e. one in the chamber, full mag inserted), and close at hand. Sounds like you got that message.

When you ask if you could have taken action before your window was broken, it sounds like you mean using your gun in some manner. I think The Annoyed Man provides the most direct answer to your question. You have also gotten advice which consists of a mixture of legalities and tactics and so forth, which sometimes clouds the actual question and issue at hand.

I find it helpful to think of these situations as operating on three levels simultaneously: the legal, the tactical, and the moral. It is a happy day when you can get your action to meet the requirements of all three levels simultaneously. Actions that are legally and morally sound (stand your ground) might not be tactically wise. Things that are tactically advantageous might not be legally or morally justified in a given situation. When you are what-iffing and war-gaming various scenarios, it might help you to figure out the best options if you break them into their legal, tactical, and moral components. At least it helps me.

I don't know if you are aware that the very first CHL-involved shooting in Texas was a traffic event right after the law came into force. You might find it interesting to compare notes (and value the wisdom of keeping your window rolled up). Documented details are hard to come by now, not least of which is because the anti-gun forces immediately used it to try to squelch Texas's new CHL program. Newspapers deliberately underplayed what happened, calling it a "minor traffic accident" and "scuffle" and so forth. As far as I have been able to determine, the details are thus:

The new CHL law came into effect on 1 Jan 96. On 21 Feb 96, Kenny Tavai clipped a mirror on Gordon Hale's vehicle, a pickup I think, but did not stop initially. Hale followed and got a license plate number. When both vehicles came to a stop, Tavai walked back to Hale's vehicle. Hale rolled down his window expecting to talk to Tavai. However, Tavai yelled at Hale, then punched him through the window several times, by some reports breaking a cheek bone and detaching a retina in Hale's eye (altho this is left out of the vast majority of newspaper articles). Tavai then grabbed Hale and tried to drag him out of the vehicle. Hale came up with a pistol, usually reported as a .40 caliber, and shot Tavai once in the chest. Tavai died from the wound.

The Dallas police arrested Hale and the DA charged him with murder. A grand jury declined to indict him. The VPC was sad.

I remember that story coming up on my first CHL class over ten years ago. I want to say it happened off of Mockingbird just down the street from DFW Gun Range.

[HankB]

About once every 5 or 6 years, some road rager tries to start something with me. When that happens, I don't respond in kind; I shrug, smile, wave, and try to make the miserable son of a . . . gun . . . think I'm apologizing for whatever he imagines I did.

So far, it's worked- each time, after a few parting gestures, the idiot has driven off, no doubt convinced he's Alpha Male King of the Road since I backed down; for my part, I didn't have to shoot anyone, which is a good outcome in my book. (I also want to be sure that if there IS escalation to the point I have to employ deadly force to protect myself and my passengers, ALL the escalation is going to come from HIM.)

And if there's any truth to the concept of karma, one day the road rager will pick a fight with somebody JUST LIKE HIM, and they'll both end up on the side of the road settling things . . . and the odds are, neither one will like the ultimate outcome.

[Texsquatch]

I feel the same about the karma thing. I tell myself that they will get what they deserve at some point. Not sure if it's true, but it keeps me out of trouble.