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n5wd wrote:Didn't want to duck completely out of this thread, but it was a very busy afternoon, and I didn't get a chance to jump back in till now.

I completely understand Charles point, and would like to think that, 40 years ago, my strapping, fit, young adult self woulda jumped in with both feet to aid an officer who appeared to need my assistance. Fast forward 40 years, and physical intervention is going to be highly modified.

One of the first thing baby EMTs and Paramedics are taught is that you can not help anyone if you become a victim, yourself. In training scenarios, the first action you ALWAYS do is ask, or determine: "Is the scene safe?"

The interventions I COULD do, in my much younger self, are not what I CAN do, pushing past 60. Like TAM said, the desire may be there, but if the body is incapable... And, of course, it depends on the situation.

Also, in my older persona, I tend to think things out a little more than I would have in my youth.

Compassionate Human? I'd like to think so, but to expect a cross section of everyone aged 20 to 80 to react the same way in an emergent situation is just not credible, for many reasons.

No disagreement with anything you've said and from an EMT or paramedic's point of view that makes perfect sense. However, someone's gotta make the scene safe in the first place and that's not an EMT or paramedic's job or responsibility.

txglock21 wrote:The bottom line is, nobody knows for sure what they would do until faced with the actual situation. I'm not too ashamed to admit I literally wet my pants the first time I was shot at while in the military.

I understand this completely.

I didn't wet my pants the first time I got shot at, but once the shooting stopped I sat and cried like a baby.

Still, I'd like to think that if a LEO appeared to need assistance, I'd be be willing to do what I could. Admittedly my abilities are limited — It's been over forty years since I was in the Army and I ain't as tough as I like to believe I once might have been . . .
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I don't get involved in anything a police officer is doing for any reason. They have backup for a reason. I carry a gun to protect myself and family. Not other people.

winters wrote:I carry a gun to protect myself and family. Not other people.

So if your wife was being raped you would like me to call 911 and be a good witness?

jmra wrote:

winters wrote:I carry a gun to protect myself and family. Not other people.

So if your wife was being raped you would like me to call 911 and be a good witness?

....and thus the start of the "great divide". Or split.

gemini wrote:

jmra wrote:

winters wrote:I carry a gun to protect myself and family. Not other people.

So if your wife was being raped you would like me to call 911 and be a good witness?

....and thus the start of the "great divide". Or split.

I believe it is a legitimate question. If you are not willing to render aid to someone else's loved one do you expect someone to render aid to your loved one? Obviously the queston is rhetorical because I would act according to my convictions regardless.

jmra wrote:

gemini wrote:

jmra wrote:

winters wrote:I carry a gun to protect myself and family. Not other people.

So if your wife was being raped you would like me to call 911 and be a good witness?

....and thus the start of the "great divide". Or split.

I believe it is a legitimate question. If you are not willing to render aid to someone else's loved one do you expect someone to render aid to your loved one? Obviously the queston is rhetorical because I would act according to my convictions regardless.

Backing LEO's and fellow citizens when the need arises is the moral duty of man. Humans have been defending other humans long before LEO's existed. If one hands over the basic duty of ones moral obligations in Society to others what else would one be willing to hand over? If all humans had no morals, no obligations to Society and no sense of right or wrong we would still be living in caves if we were not extinct long ago. I'm glad our forefathers had the "temerity" to always do what's right...

Well put rb.

joe817 wrote: Well put rb.

I'm glad somebody brought this up; it's something I've often wondered about. Some years ago, I saw an incident with a cop that just left me thinking. I was driving along a semi-industrial street and saw a cop wrestling with a suspect. The suspect was bigger and more muscular than the cop. They were both standing up and the cop was trying to use some kind of rear arm/neck lock, but the suspect was just shrugging him off from sheer size and strength. While I watching, two more cops pulled up in a cruiser, jumped out and they subdued the suspect.

But it left me thinking: what if that second car hadn't arrived, and I decided to render assistance? How far could I have gone? How much force could I use against the (unarmed) suspect? For example, could I have drawn my CW? Could I have whacked him a couple of times with a baseball bat or crowbar? Shove him to the ground and stomp on his joints and kick his teeth in? Or would I be limited to fists only? I'm in my 60s and not the stud I was 40 years ago, by the way. So I always wondered how much force I would have been justified in using.

In any case, I'm glad that second cruiser pulled up...

jmra wrote:

winters wrote:I carry a gun to protect myself and family. Not other people.

So if your wife was being raped you would like me to call 911 and be a good witness?

im not married. and i have no kids. problem solved.lol

winters wrote:

jmra wrote:

winters wrote:I carry a gun to protect myself and family. Not other people.

So if your wife was being raped you would like me to call 911 and be a good witness?

im not married. and i have no kids. problem solved.lol

If you ever do have a family of your own, you're feelings might change.

jmra wrote:

winters wrote:I carry a gun to protect myself and family. Not other people.

So if your wife was being raped you would like me to call 911 and be a good witness?

What I would want, what I expect you to do, what I would advise as best for you, and what you are legally obligated to do may be completely different things. I expect you to act in accordance with the law and your best interests. That is probably to be a good witness. I would also advise, in the general sense, the same thing.

What I want is for you to either intervene to help protect her but you are under no obligation to do so and I recognize that getting involved may be against your immediate best interests. If we get into a philosophical discussion of the danger to society by allowing crime to occur, I may try to convince you that standing by as a witness is not truly in your self-interest but I don't expect many people to act in the "enlightened" self-interest mode over the immediate self-interest mode.

winters wrote:

jmra wrote:

winters wrote:I carry a gun to protect myself and family. Not other people.

So if your wife was being raped you would like me to call 911 and be a good witness?

im not married. and i have no kids. problem solved.lol

But you did say family. Substitute your sister, niece, or mom for wife or daughter.

srothstein wrote:

jmra wrote:

winters wrote:I carry a gun to protect myself and family. Not other people.

So if your wife was being raped you would like me to call 911 and be a good witness?

What I would want, what I expect you to do, what I would advise as best for you, and what you are legally obligated to do may be completely different things. I expect you to act in accordance with the law and your best interests. That is probably to be a good witness. I would also advise, in the general sense, the same thing.

What I want is for you to either intervene to help protect her but you are under no obligation to do so and I recognize that getting involved may be against your immediate best interests. If we get into a philosophical discussion of the danger to society by allowing crime to occur, I may try to convince you that standing by as a witness is not truly in your self-interest but I don't expect many people to act in the "enlightened" self-interest mode over the immediate self-interest mode.

This.

While determining what is and is not a crime is sometimes difficult, if you believe an assault to a person is being committed should you intervene?

I say yes.