Training Requirements Questions

[Jumping Frog]

...I've been getting different stories about the proficiency portion - specifically about the ammo requirements. I've had two instructors say ...

And as the conversations have developed about the ammo, I'm being told that the ammo has to be boxed in original boxes - for safety. In doing so that is the only way to ensure that you're not using reloads as they've got rules prohibiting use of reloads on the range....

You are getting "told" a lot of stuff.

You live in Houston. Why wouldn't you simply take Charles Cotton's course? That way you know you are getting accurate information about the CHL requirements and the law. The shooting proficiency test is the least important part of the course in my opinion, as virtually 100% of people pass the course of fire. The most important part of the course is learning the information that could keep me out of prison.

Mr. Cotton's course is usually the first Saturday of a month. CLICK HERE for more information and to register.

https://www.chlregistration.com/index.p ... s-l-cotton" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Glockster]

...I've been getting different stories about the proficiency portion - specifically about the ammo requirements. I've had two instructors say ...

And as the conversations have developed about the ammo, I'm being told that the ammo has to be boxed in original boxes - for safety. In doing so that is the only way to ensure that you're not using reloads as they've got rules prohibiting use of reloads on the range....

You are getting "told" a lot of stuff.

You live in Houston. Why wouldn't you simply take Charles Cotton's course? That way you know you are getting accurate information about the CHL requirements and the law. The shooting proficiency test is the least important part of the course in my opinion, as virtually 100% of people pass the course of fire. The most important part of the course is learning the information that could keep me out of prison.

Mr. Cotton's course is usually the first Saturday of a month. CLICK HERE for more information and to register.

https://www.chlregistration.com/index.p ... s-l-cotton" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, I was "told" a lot of stuff - and your point is????

Several folks here suggested that I talk to the instructor(s) and ask my questions and so I did. The end result of asking questions is that you get "told" things.

I would LOVE to take his class and do appreciate that suggestion. But I don't live in Houston, as I said in a previous post. I live North of Houston, and it is without any traffic issues 1hr10min to his location. He is the FIRST class that I looked up when I started relooking this week, but most importantly I need to take a weekday class and he doesn't have any. So I've had to look for any class that is taught on a weekday, and that's how I happen to be having lots of conversations.

[Glockster]

Well, Glockster - I'm curious now... How would you get around the command to "Load 5 rounds and make ready to fire!"? With pre-loaded magazines? How many magazines would you be bringing to my range?

And, let's say you have a malfunction on one round in a string of 5 shots, but with plenty of time to drop the magazine, load another round, re-insert the magazine and charge the gun? You just had 5 loaded in that mag... Are you going to just drop the missing shot?

Do you have some reason for not wanting to walk up to the firing line at my ranger with an empty gun and a box of 50 rounds and loading them as instructed to do during the course of fire?

I'd like to think that I would make accomodations for someone with a disability, but so far you haven't said thats what the problem is.

And if you think it's none of my bee's wax, feel free to tell me so! After all, I'm not trying to get you to out yourself if you don't want to answer.

Well, N5wd please show me where that is a requirement? The DPS requirement indicates that there are nine stages, correct? So where does it say in the DPS requirements that I couldn't simply bring nine mags loaded with a minimum of ten rounds in each?

Yes, accommodations for disabilities are something that you "would make" because as an instructor you are legally required under ADA to do so.

Do I have a reason for not wanting to walk up to a range with an empty gun. No, I don't walk onto ranges with loaded guns. Do you?

Assuming you meant my not wanting to have empty mags and then being forced to load 50 rounds during all the stages from a box into a mag, correct I do not want to have to do that. And it IS in fact NOYB. I don't have to explain any physical limitation basis to you, I simply have to say that there is one.

I NEVER said that I cannot load rounds into a mag, and I do that and I can show anyone that I know how to do that. I did ask nicely about why any instructor would refuse to allow an accommodation (and to be clear, "accommodation" would be the term used under ADA to require an alternative way to do something that cannot be done because of a physical restriction). My issue is about having to load FIFTY rounds, in short succession into mags, without using even a loader. Just because some instructor believes that to be a requirement. When doing so risks an injury. When clearly there would be other ways to do that. Or are you saying in your above, as you seem to poke fun at people with disabilities, that your personal belief is that if someone has a disability that they can't become qualified for a CHL On your range?

I've been trying to get help here and your response is certainly less than helpful. To be clear, you need to understand that you would actually not have a choice in the matter and I believe that you open yourself up to an ADA complaint if you refuse to allow an accommodation to a practice of yours for which there is no legal requirement. So kindly show me the DPS requirement or the law that mandates that someone with a physical limitation MUST do as you say.

[Glockster]

Yeah, I have in front of me a copy of the "Texas Concealed Handgun License Proficiency Demonstration Course of Fire" from the DPS site. And it clearly contains no such requirements. However, the issue remains that just like some instructors have posted here, apparently instructors have decided to add as they wish to those requirements. And I'm not really sure what to do as I'm not so far finding any instructors who are closest to me (I'm North of Houston, almost to Conroe) who aren't saying the same thing (or some version of it as they all seem to be saying one thing or another, but all in addition to what is in the DPS requirements.

This is beginning to sound like a time to have a conversation with DPS as with above it seems to be clear that instructors here are saying that they've been told during their training to do this, or that they can do this, or whatever.

There are no such requirements by DPS, or in statute. Any instructor that adds his/her own requirements is on very thin ice. We cannot fail a student for failure to meet any standard or requirement that is not either in statute or published DPS regulation. We can have rules that relate to running a safe range, but we cannot create our own performance standards.

Chas.

Thank you kindly for confirming what I suspected. Now if only I could get an instructor to come to the same conclusion.

I sure wish that you had weekday classes! And ironically I'll be just a few miles away from your class this weekend (but in a different kind of class).

[thetexan]

The not loading in advance is being justified as necessary to demonstrate proficiency (in knowing how to handle the gun) and for range safety so they can verify the correct number of rounds being loaded.

The only proficiency you are required to demonstrate for the State of Texas is the ability to shoot a 175 score in their course of fire, and do so in a safe, professional manner in the process.

An instructor, the RO or the master of the line may require any method for conduct of the course of fire as long as he does not add to or subtract from the requirements set by the state. Since the instructor has that kind of authority it is easy to confuse his method of conducting the shoot with adding requirements to the qualification. And it is a fine line for sure.

On my line if you came to me and said you wanted to preload I would say no. I want you to load with everyone else. My reason for that is not that I don't think you can load and want to see you do it, it's because I want everyone to do the same thing the same way at the same time. That's my way of controlling 20 people on the line in a safe fashion. If you said to me that you need to for some good reason I will do my best to accommodate you. What I won't do is fail you on the state qualification for that because that is not a part of the qualification. If you tell me you insist on preloading (or whatever) because that's the way you like to do it, I will politely remind you that I do not allow that and if you insist then, at that very moment, you and I will part company. And I will do so because as a part of the registration to my class you will have accepted the terms of my instruction as printed in the documentation, and for not the least reason because you do not set or are responsible for safety policy on the line ........I do...and I am. And that is as it should be on any line.

If on my line you showed up with reloaded ammo I would not let you shoot. Because that was a condition of your taking my instruction as printed in the documentation, not because there is a state requirement. I would not be disqualifying you with the state, I would be disqualifying you with me. To you it might look like I am adding a requirement to the state's. I would not be. I would making a requirement for you to shoot on my line.

In other words, no instructor will allow someone to show up to shoot and just do it any old way he wants to. It is not the candidate's operation, it is the instructor's. The instructor or the RO DICTATES safety policy on his range. He has the responsibility and has been given the authority to go with that responsibility. He also has the trust of the State of Texas to pass or fail a candidate in his attempt to qualify during the actual shooting of the course of fire by nothing more or nothing less that the state's mandated requirements.

It is easy for the lines between the right of an instructor's and line master to control his shoot and the state requirements for qualification to become blurred (and certainly appear so by the candidate ) and sometimes therein lies some of the confusion. There ARE some instructors who do cross that line.

tex

[Glockster]

I was just looking at your site, and I'm not able to see where you say that you do not allow pre-loading of mags?

I think that this is pretty ripe for an ADA grievance and/or ADA lawsuit. If the DPS does not require the loading by banning pre-loading, and requires it in a certain way, I believe that an instructor is as Chas. says, on very thin ice, because all someone has to do is go to find one other qualified instructor who says that pre-loading doesn't compromise range safety and then point to the law and DPS requirements, and it's game over and someone will own your range after that. The law is extremely clear that a business offering services to the general public, especially one providing state required qualifications that don't contain those requirements, must by law grant that accommodation.

The not loading in advance is being justified as necessary to demonstrate proficiency (in knowing how to handle the gun) and for range safety so they can verify the correct number of rounds being loaded.

The only proficiency you are required to demonstrate for the State of Texas is the ability to shoot a 175 score in their course of fire, and do so in a safe, professional manner in the process.

An instructor, the RO or the master of the line may require any method for conduct of the course of fire as long as he does not add to or subtract from the requirements set by the state. Since the instructor has that kind of authority it is easy to confuse his method of conducting the shoot with adding requirements to the qualification. And it is a fine line for sure.

On my line if you came to me and said you wanted to preload I would say no. I want you to load with everyone else. My reason for that is not that I don't think you can load and want to see you do it, it's because I want everyone to do the same thing the same way at the same time. That's my way of controlling 20 people on the line in a safe fashion. If you said to me that you need to for some good reason I will do my best to accommodate you. What I won't do is fail you on the state qualification for that because that is not a part of the qualification. If you tell me you insist on preloading (or whatever) because that's the way you like to do it, I will politely remind you that I do not allow that and if you insist then, at that very moment, you and I will part company. And I will do so because as a part of the registration to my class you will have accepted the terms of my instruction as printed in the documentation, and for not the least reason because you do not set or are responsible for safety policy on the line ........I do...and I am. And that is as it should be on any line.

If on my line you showed up with reloaded ammo I would not let you shoot. Because that was a condition of your taking my instruction as printed in the documentation, not because there is a state requirement. I would not be disqualifying you with the state, I would be disqualifying you with me. To you it might look like I am adding a requirement to the state's. I would not be. I would making a requirement for you to shoot on my line.

In other words, no instructor will allow someone to show up to shoot and just do it any old way he wants to. It is not the candidate's operation, it is the instructor's. The instructor or the RO DICTATES safety policy on his range. He has the responsibility and has been given the authority to go with that responsibility. He also has the trust of the State of Texas to pass or fail a candidate in his attempt to qualify during the actual shooting of the course of fire by nothing more or nothing less that the state's mandated requirements.

It is easy for the lines between the right of an instructor's and line master to control his shoot and the state requirements for qualification to become blurred (and certainly appear so by the candidate ) and sometimes therein lies some of the confusion. There ARE some instructors who do cross that line.

tex

[thetexan]

Interested parties are sent an enrollment package that stipulates in excruciating detail all aspects of the classroom and qualification shoot. Much of it is also in the FAQs.
To name a few...

certain kind of eye and ear protection
prohibited types of clothing
ammo
equipment inspection
rules on the line

what to bring to class including a copy of the latest rules and notebook

and more

I'm pretty specific

As to a candidate being able to do almost anything that is not covered as a requirement by the state...

Under that theory a candidate could come with rusty, reloaded ammo, a gun that has a push-off hammer or slide, no eye protection, no ear protection, 10 loaded magazines, etc and the instructor would be helpless to do anything about it.

The instructor, master of the line, and/or RO is responsible both collectively and individually from a practical, legal and liability point of view to protect everyone in his class. No instructor will allow free reign and the possible resulting chaos or danger. And anyone is free to take that instructor or operation to a magistrate to challenge him in court. As an instructor I have two missions, the primary mission is to conduct a safe shoot. And, by the way, I am instructed to do so by the very State of Texas that requires the second mission, which is, to conduct, in the auspices and environment of a managed, safe range operation, the simple requirements of their CHL gun qualification. Those two missions must be merged and, like it or not, the instructor is charged by the very State of Texas itself with making that happen. He must manage and control a safe shoot as he sees fit while at the same time not adding to or subtracting from the actual requirements of the qualification.

And by the way, I know of no instructor who would refuse an accommodation to a legitimate request. However, if this is all about the right of a shooter to shoot the course any way he chooses verses the right and responsibility of an instructor to legitimately and reasonably (I do not include abuses of power) manage his line and conduct that qualification in what he believes and determines is a safe manner then that person will lose the argument here and in court.

[Glockster]

Interested parties are sent an enrollment package that stipulates in excruciating detail all aspects of the classroom and qualification shoot.
To name a few...

certain kind of eye and ear protection
prohibited types of clothing
ammo
equipment inspection
rules on the line

what to bring to class including a copy of the latest rules and notebook

and more

I'm pretty specific

As to a candidate being able to do almost anything that is not covered as a requirement by the state...

Under that theory a candidate could come with rusty, reloaded ammo, a gun that has a push-off hammer or slide, no eye protection, no ear protection, 10 loaded magazines, etc and the instructor would be helpless to do anything about it.

The instructor, master of the line, and/or RO is responsible collectively and individually both from a practical, legal and liability point of view to protect everyone in his class. No instructor will allow free reign and the possible resulting chaos or danger. And anyone is free to take that instructor or operation to a magistrate to challenge him in court. As an instructor I have two missions, the primary mission is to conduct a safe shoot. And by the way I am instructed to do so by the very State of Texas that requires the second mission, which is, to conduct, in the auspices and environment of a managed, safe range operation, the simple requirements of their CHL gun qualification. Those two missions must be merged and, like it or not, the instructor must make that happen. He must manage and control a safe shoot as he sees fit while at the same time not adding to or subtracting from the actual requirements of the qualification.

And by the way, I know of no instructor who would refuse an accommodation to a legitimate request. However, if this is all about the right of a shooter to shoot the course any way he chooses verses the right and responsibility of an instructor to legitimately manage his line and conduct that qualification in what he believes and determines is a safe manner then that person will lose the argument here and in court.

Good to know you also provide all that additional information!

Please don't get me wrong, this isn't about using unsafe equipment and "rusty, reloaded ammo, a gun that has a push-off hammer or slide, no eye protection, no ear protection" which is definitely different than "10 loaded magazines" as the former items clearly speak to safety issues and having a loaded magazine doesn't. Nor is it about trying to take control of the shoot away from the instructor. HOWEVER, I still believe that any instructor would be extremely hard pressed to be able to clearly prove that there is any compelling reason why someone couldn't pre-load or use a loader. A mag can be loaded several ways, and it can be loaded before or immediately before shooting. The DPS requirement doesn't specify one or the other nor does it exclude one or the other.

With the ADA it isn't about taking anything like that to a magistrate or any state/local court as the ADA under the ADAA is governing over any and all applicable state and local laws. And IF the process can be reasonably modified to provide the accommodation it must be, and if it isn't then it is a US DOJ complaint and they investigate and they determine the penalty. And actually, to help you understand -- the ADA doesn't even require someone to request the accommodation, they simply have to tell you what they cannot do and you are then required to determine whether any accommodation can be made and if so, put it in place. That's the theory that requires a ramp to be on a building BEFORE the need exists, so that the individual doesn't first encounter an obstacle that must then be removed (that is a change to ADA). So in theory, under the law, an accommodation for pre-loading and/or loaders should already exist...because people safely preload at ranges all the time, and they bring loaders all the time.

But what appears to be quickly becoming an issue is that despite you personally not being aware of any instructors that would refuse an accommodation, I am collecting an apparent set of them and haven't yet found one near me who said they would. And that's not counting anyone here who has already put in a public forum that they would refuse to make that accommodation.

[thetexan]

Glockster wrote "...as the former items clearly speak to safety issues and having a loaded magazine doesn't..."

That is where I believe you are making an assumption.

Maybe it does and maybe it doesnt. The determining factor is the instructor.

In my class, as a method for ENSURING TO MY BEST JUDGEMENT that I can control and maintain a safe shooting experience I REQUIRE that everyone does everything the same way, at the same time, on command. Everyone loads at the same time. Everyone holds up their mag showing me they are ready at the same time, everyone inserts and charges at the same time, everyone aims and makes ready at the same time and everyone shoots at the same time. In my operation, having someone insist on doing it differently (other than a legitimate accommodation) would violate the very procedure that I, as the instructor responsible for safety AS I HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE AUTHORITY AND RESPONSIBILITY TO ENSURE (Im not yelling just emphasizing) have instituted to provide that safety. Having someone doing something differently down on the left end of the line requires my additional attention to keep up with him. I do not choose to accept that additional risk to the operation, so I do not allow it. And, my opinion, it is reasonable.

So on my line having different people doing different things at different times, in my duly authorized opinion, IS A SAFETY ISSUE.

And.......AND......when I do make whatever accommodation is necessary for a legitimate reason I will provide that accommodation on my terms, in what I believe is a safe manner, taking the safety of the entire operation into consideration. That might mean I will conduct your qualification separately, or have another marshall specifically assigned to you and your accommodation. But my final, decision and determination will be made taking WHAT I CONSIDER all of the safety issues are for THE ENTIRE LINE into consideration. None of this means that I or any instructor am/is trying to make, or in fact IS making, one's qualification harder or more stringent that is required by the state.


Glockster, I'm not aiming any of this at you. This is a very good discussion on what is a very real problem with some instructors and I appreciate your comments.

tex

[Glockster]

Glockster wrote "...as the former items clearly speak to safety issues and having a loaded magazine doesn't..."

That is where I believe you are making an assumption.

Maybe it does and maybe it doesnt. The determining factor is the instructor.

In my class, as a method for ENSURING TO MY BEST JUDGEMENT that I can control and maintain a safe shooting experience I REQUIRE that everyone does everything the same way, at the same time, on command. Everyone loads at the same time. Everyone holds up their mag showing me they are ready at the same time, everyone inserts and charges at the same time, everyone aims and makes ready at the same time and everyone shoots at the same time. In my operation, having someone insist on doing it differently (other than a legitimate accommodation) would violate the very procedure that I, as the instructor responsible for safety AS I HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE AUTHORITY AND RESPONSIBILITY TO ENSURE (Im not yelling just emphasizing) have instituted to provide that safety. Having someone doing something differently down on the left end of the line requires my additional attention to keep up with him. I do not choose to accept that additional risk to the operation, so I do not allow it. And, my opinion, it is reasonable.

So on my line having different people doing different things at different times, in my duly authorized opinion, IS A SAFETY ISSUE.

And.......AND......when I do make whatever accommodation is necessary for a legitimate reason I will provide that accommodation on my terms, in what I believe is a safe manner, taking the safety of the entire operation into consideration. That might mean I will conduct your qualification separately, or have another marshall specifically assigned to you and your accommodation. But my final, decision and determination will be made taking WHAT I CONSIDER all of the safety issues are for THE ENTIRE LINE into consideration. None of this means that an instructor is trying to make, or in fact IS making, one's qualification harder or more stringent that is required by the state.

In my business of Air Traffic Control, I am tasked, in my Quality Control and Quality Assurance role, along with many others, with looking for, finding, and mitigating risks to the ATC system. We look for things that add risk and avoid them. We scrutinize anything and everything. As a firearms instructor I use those same skill sets to look for and minimize risks in my operation and operate as I do with that in mind, as does every instructor I know. We each find different ways of doing that but we all have the same goal in mind.

Glockster, I'm not aiming any of this at you. This is a very good discussion on what is a very real problem with some instructors and I appreciate your comments.

tex

But that's the thing -- when someone has a disability you HAVE to accommodate if at all possible. The law requires that. What you describe as a need to have everyone do everything at the same time is a matter of convenience to you as the instructor, because clearly it is possible to do things differently, isn't it? I mean, is there NO other way that you could do things -- e.g., the person that needs to do it differently is in the range position closest to the instructor so that you can see that everyone else is ready and that the person with the disability is also ready? That's what I'm talking about. You could also inspect mags, see that the rounds are loaded properly and do that before you have the rest of the class doing their part. I'm just tossing out practical examples of how something **could** be done.

But I suspect that you'd have a hard time proving that having a pre-loaded magazine is a safety issue. What would the basis of that be? We walk around with them all the time. They can be checked and to the same degree be seen to be as safe as one that someone on the range's. Unless you're saying (and I don't believe you are) that everyone in your classes one at a time load their mags with you standing there watching each person...then what happens is that you tell everyone to load their mags. And if you were to check them, there would be no difference between them doing it a moment before from me doing it 10 minutes before, or whatever. And again, if any other qualified instructor has accepted it -- then an accommodation already exists, and unless you want to prove that that instructor is operating in an unsafe manner, you'd have a very hard time proving that you couldn't do it.

Frankly, to me, what this seems to be like with the instructors that I've so far discussed this with is that they are coming into this with an attitude that whatever they say goes whether there is a valid reason or not. And I think that was the point of Charles's earlier post -- within the law and regulation yes, and if it impacts range safety, sure.

I appreciate the discussion, really. I am certainly frustrated by having my application done, fingerprints scheduled, and just can't seem to find a class.

[thetexan]

Glockster, my friend,

how many times do I have to use the term LEGITIMATE accommodation? I'm agreeing with you that there are abuses of power and they should be addressed. I am agreeing with you that there are reasons to make an accommodation and that, speaking for myself, I will do so.

Here's the big qualifier...

In the final analysis, it's up to the instructor to make the determination of legitimacy based on his goals of safety for the others. Sometimes the instructor gets that determination wrong and when he does that's a shame and a hurt to the person who needs it. Most of the time he get's it right. When there is an outrageous abuse of his discretion then, of course, someone would have a legitimate claim against him.

Personally, nothing short of outright, incapability to safely operate their weapon will stop me from allowing anyone from attempting to qualify. Only when I think they are a danger to themselves or others will I stop the process (by the way, with the full support of the state).

So I think we are really talking about a few guys who may have taken the CHL course and are making it something it isn't. That's an easy fix. Just let the DPS know and they'll be right on top of it.

As to the preloaded mags. Preloaded mags are not in and of themselves unsafe and yes, we carry them around all of the time. But that is not the point, is it? The point is that letting someone bring preloaded mags at their insistence, and by doing so, doing things differently than other shooters on my line after I have determined that the very act of doing things differently is the condition that adds the risks that are unacceptable to me, the responsible party. I, personally, have determined that it is a safety issue in my protocol of doing things together. The preloaded mags, in and off themselves are not the thing that is a safety issue. Having different people do different things at different times is what I have determined to be a safety issue, regardless of what the thing is. If I have to let you use preloaded mags then another shooter could insist on not wearing eye protection, or another in not laying the gun down after empty because he doesn't want to get his new pretty gun scratched.

If someone has a legitimate need that I can safely accommodate (with respect to the safety of the entire crowd) then I will do what is reasonable and practical to do so.

The instructor's line, the instructor's shoot, the instructor's responsibility, the instructor's liability, the instructor's mission, the instructor's decision.

tex

[thetexan]

Glockster, By the way...why can't you find a class?

[Glockster]

Glockster, By the way...why can't you find a class?

Firstly, because of my schedule I'm trying to find a class held during weekdays. The second and immediate issue comes directly down to instructors claiming that it is a violation of requirements/law to do anything other than bring a box of 50 and load each time, and stating that they will not under any circumstances deviate. I even had one guy who I said, okay, what if I did a private class (he has a fee listed for that). And even then he wouldn't let me deviate, because you know, it's against requirements/law. IF I didn't have a seminar this weekend to be at, I would be in Charles' class.

[thetexan]

What is your reason that you need to preload?

[KC5AV]

And as the conversations have developed about the ammo, I'm being told that the ammo has to be boxed in original boxes - for safety. In doing so that is the only way to ensure that you're not using reloads as they've got rules prohibiting use of reloads on the range. I asked if they inspect everyone's rounds to try to determine if they were reloads, because someone could simply be using old boxes - no answer yet.

The not loading in advance is being justified as necessary to demonstrate proficiency (in knowing how to handle the gun) and for range safety so they can verify the correct number of rounds being loaded.

The sad thing is the number of classes I'm finding in the area whose web pages say the same kind of things.

I could get behind the boxed ammo requirement. DPS has a list of approved ammo. Their range, their rules.
As far as the pre-loaded mags, you wouldn't be allowed to do that on the range where I instruct and assist. If any student has a need for an accommodation regarding loading magazines, they are provided with someone to load the magazines for them. When we have students bring loaded weapons to the line, we make them remove and empty magazines.