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C-dub wrote:

baldeagle wrote:

C-dub wrote:He basically stole from the Government. So, he's harmed the US Government and possibly by extension all of us. And so far a court has given a free pass on this saying it was free speech. I don't understand how they concluded that he did not gain from what he did to defraud the government.

The fraud charges remained. Those were not overturned. What I don't understand is the "speech" they are protecting was the use of medals to defraud the government. It just makes no sense to me that that is free speech.

Yeah, seems like there's a whole lotta stuff that's free speech that's an act and not speech.

Some consider freedom of speech and expression to be a natural right similar to self defense. Therefore, it does not need to be enumerated in the Constitution in order to be considered a right. Acts, such as the wearing of medals and other decorations, would fall under the act of freedom of expression.

Pawpaw wrote:Like many others on this board, I am a veteran. I agree with everyone who said it should not be illegal unless the person gains from it - and then only because it becomes fraud.

Does it tick me off? Of course! But unlike the libtards, I do not believe everything that ticks me off should be illegal.

The right to free speech is the only one of our enumerated rights that the framers listed ahead of the right to keep & bear arms. There is a very good reason for that... Without the 1st Amendment, the 2nd becomes irrelevant. I don't want free speech limited any more than is absolutely necessary, period.

Ridicule and humiliate the person, yes. He earned that much. Throw him in jail, no.

As much as I hate to admit it, but I agree with you. I ran across a guy at a texans game who was wearing a unit crest that I served under. People were buying him drinks food and he got his seat upgraded. After a while his story started running into each other. Thats when he got called out. He finally apologized and left quickly. Not before a few people got some sneaky hits in and his drink slapped out of his hand.

lildave40 wrote: As much as I hate to admit it, but I agree with you. I ran across a guy at a texans game who was wearing a unit crest that I served under. People were buying him drinks food and he got his seat upgraded. After a while his story started running into each other. Thats when he got called out. He finally apologized and left quickly. Not before a few people got some sneaky hits in and his drink slapped out of his hand.

Here's the problem I have with this. No one fakes medals to make a statement. They do it to get a benefit. After Vietnam, they did it to claim PTSD and health benefits and to get sympathy from people, because everyone thought that Vietnam vets were troubled guys with serious mental issues because of all the atrocities they had committed. Now that the country thinks highly of vets again, they do it to get accolades, and things like you point out; free drinks, discounts, upgrades, etc.

Do you not think that the people at the game were victimized by this guy? He played on their love and concern for veterans to get special treatment.

It SHOULD be a crime. It is NOT free speech. Speech is making a statement. Taking a position on an issue. What statement is someone making when they wear medals they did not earn? What position are they taking? That Americans are suckers? That you can get away with stuff if you fake it?

It should be a crime.

Sounds to me like this is one of those things where generally like-minded people of good will can agree to disagree.

BG Burkett's and Glenna Whitley's book that inspired the Stolen Valor Act - "Stolen Valor: How the Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of Its Heroes and Its History" is well worth reading. It not only exposes the frauds it also sheds some interesting and enlightening insight about Vietnam era veterans, the myths, etc. and exposes some of who's responsible and how it came about. I was not able to serve, but I had many friend who enlisted upon graduation and many who were drafted. 32 guys enlisted together in the Marines. One of them whose obituary in 2010 claimed he was awarded two Silver Stars and was a pilot was a fraud, though he did serve in the military. I discovered his top rank was sergeant and when I mentioned it to another veteran friend in a letter to him, he informed as a sergeant he wouldn't have been a pilot. I looked up our friend and found that he had no medals. The friend I wrote is incarcerated in TDCJ and is involved in a prisoner veteran's group. Interestingly my friend in prison mentioned Dana K. McIntosh, a member and officer in their prisoner group, who said he was awarded three (3) Silver Stars. When I investigated the name I discovered McIntosh was mentioned in the forward of "Stolen Valor:..." and the topic of a story titled "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. McIntosh" by Glenna Whitley published in "D" Magazine. Amazingly even after my friend exposed him he continues to get the support of many (other veteran prisoners) who believe him rather then the facts. Burkett believes there are as many claiming to be veterans as there are actual veterans.

http://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d ... r-mcintosh

Good. It's ridiculous that there are people who think that it should be criminal to wear something that they don't like. As long as the person doesn't benefit from it, no one should care. "Stolen Valor" is one of the most ridiculous charges that I've ever heard.

C-dub wrote:He basically stole from the Government. So, he's harmed the US Government and possibly by extension all of us. And so far a court has given a free pass on this saying it was free speech. I don't understand how they concluded that he did not gain from what he did to defraud the government.

Slight disagreement. He didn't steal from the Government. The Government has no money and no resources. He stole from me and he stole from every other tax payer. He should be punished for that theft.

I agree that the mere claim of having earned medals should not be criminal, but the theft is a crime.

jt88 wrote:Good. It's ridiculous that there are people who think that it should be criminal to wear something that they don't like. As long as the person doesn't benefit from it, no one should care. "Stolen Valor" is one of the most ridiculous charges that I've ever heard.

Wear something they don't like? So long as they don't benefit from it? Sheesh. Apparently you didn't even bother to read the thread.

You last sentence I won't comment on, because it would get me banned. Suffice it say that as a veteran who served honorably and who lost a dear, decorated cousin in Vietnam.....never mind.

jt88 wrote:Good. It's ridiculous that there are people who think that it should be criminal to wear something that they don't like. As long as the person doesn't benefit from it, no one should care. "Stolen Valor" is one of the most ridiculous charges that I've ever heard.

It's a perfectly valid social change. It just doesn't rise to the level of criminality. It's like farting in an elevator with a captive audience. Stinks, but doesn't deserve a trial.

The problem is that we now live in a culture where there exists hate speech laws, limits on political campaign contributions, etc., etc., and we've gotten used to the idea that if a thing offends us, there should be a law against it.

About 15 years ago, my wife and I went to meet my brother for sushi at a place in SoCal. Walking from the car to the restaurant, we were accosted by a guy who was well dressed and groomed, who gave me what turned out to be a song and dance about being desperate for money, having a daughter at home who was hungry, and not having gotten his first paycheck on his new job, and could I please spare him some cash so that he could feed his kid.

I gave him a $10 bill, and he immediately scurried off down an alley. A homeless person who was sitting on the sidewalk there, next to the corner of the sidewalk and the alley started laughing at us. He said, "You know that guy's a crack head, right? He just went to score!" Well, I had a sneaking suspicion in the back of my mind that there might be something less than kosher about the guy's story, but I also worship a God who calls me to be charitable, and life is not without some risks. Yeah, I got taken, but I couldn't feel too bad about it. God will deal with him, but at least I was motivated from a right heart, and I thought, God will honor that. There's one other time where I later found out I had been taken in a similar circumstance. But at the time, the stories seemed plausible.

People often lead drab and unexciting existences, and they want heroes. And when an apparent hero just falls in their laps, they want to show their appreciation. This is the hook that scammers use when they practice stolen valor for benefit. My dad NEVER bragged about his Purple Heart and other medals. Not once. REAL recipients of Medals of Honor, Navy Crosses, Silver Stars, Bronze Stars, and other awards for valor in combat tend not to either. Often, the actions that resulted in their awards are so painful to recall that the last thing they want to do is drag those memories up brag about it to anyone.

So perhaps a word of caution to all of us - don't be too quick to believe it when someone spouts off about his alleged heroism under fire. I for one will be non-committal and ask questions before accepting it as true.

The Annoyed Man wrote:

jt88 wrote:Good. It's ridiculous that there are people who think that it should be criminal to wear something that they don't like. As long as the person doesn't benefit from it, no one should care. "Stolen Valor" is one of the most ridiculous charges that I've ever heard.

It's a perfectly valid social change. It just doesn't rise to the level of criminality. It's like farting in an elevator with a captive audience. Stinks, but doesn't deserve a trial.

Yep. This guy absolutely deserves to be shunned by society, but I don't want to live in a nanny state where those actions are criminal.

The Stolen Valor Act was struck down by SCOTUS in 2012. The act broadened already existing federal law. The glory seekers i.e. Brian Dennehy, Richard Blumenthal are the tip of the iceberg. There were and are individuals misrepresenting themselves for benefit and law signed in 2013 criminalizes fraudulently posing as veteran for benefit. These fakes seek veterans benefits and services. Many fakes have been removed from National Cemeteries after exposure , but there are many who remain in the already overloaded VA system. The individual involved in the case that struck down the 2005 act (US VS Alvarez) was convicted of misappropriation of public funds, grand theft, and insurance fraud in 2009 and sentenced to five years in state prison. I have no problem with the free speech application. It gives me the right to call them scumbags.

puma guy wrote: It gives me the right to call them scumbags.

That's an insult to scumbags.

DevilDawg wrote:

Javier730 wrote:We shouldn't be arresting these stolen valor guys. Its funny to see them get called out on it on YouTube.

I have to disagree for a couple reasons. It belittles the honorable service done by those who have stepped up in our all volunteer forces. It says that it is ok to live your life in pretend and there are no repercussions. Here's a trophy for showing up.

Also by not using the justice system, but mob rules we are culpable in encouraging violence for clicks on fellow citizens. People verbally and physically attacking people when they are subject matter experts themselves. We all heard about a case where some Fobbit(s) attacked another veteran simply because they weren't in the know enough themselves to comprehend.

We are better as a people than this, and to do otherwise only encourages stupid people to stay that way.

As one of those who have done service - I can't support making this a crime. It's scummy, and many other things besides - but I believe it falls within free speech - just like burning the flag.

Every dishonorable, disgusting thing isn't a crime.

My advice would be to ignore those folks, and make sure everyone around them knows they are liars.