TexasCHLforum.com

Skiprr wrote:

thetexan wrote:There is no "effective notice". You're referring to effective consent. Notice is not "effective". It either is or isn't given.

See PC §46.035. The phrase "effective notice" is used five times.

Not only there but 411.2031. In all cases the language states "effective notice under Section 30.06" except .2031 which states "effective notice under Section 411.204". So, yes, the statutes refer to the condition of having received effective notice. But what does that mean?

In all cases the language points back to 30.06/.07 which has a very specific black and white meaning. Likewise with .2031 pointing back to .204. 30.06 says precisely what notice is. There is no guesswork.

You are right that they use the phrase. My point was that 30.06 drives the train as to notice and that signs are not a requirement. Use of the word effective does not somehow muddy the preciseness of 30.06.

That may not have been his intent and if not I apologize

tex

I would think that you are covered under MPA carrying concealed between your hotel room and car regardless.

If there is no sign or card at the hotel, I don't believe you've been given effective notice. A statement on the website is not a sign or card or verbal notice.

I'm relatively new to Texas. What exactly is the "MPA"? I've seen it referenced but not enough info to research it. Thanks

Bryanmc wrote:I'm relatively new to Texas. What exactly is the "MPA"? I've seen it referenced but not enough info to research it. Thanks

Motorist Protection Act MPA
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.46.htm
Texas Penal Code 46.02
As amended in 2009, Texas implemented the Motorist Protection Act which allows a person without a CHL to have a handgun (inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle
that is owned by the person or under the person's control.)provided that:

in their car
1. the handgun remains concealed
2. the person is not engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor (a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic)
3. the person is not prohibited by law from possessing a firearm
4. the person is not a member of a criminal street gang

Watercraft (Kayak, canoes, Boats, PWC) were added to "car" later, I believe it was legislative session before last?

However, there are still places where people can't carry in car/boat >>>Examples: CARS and WATERCRAFT on Army Corps of Engineer managed parks/property/lakes, Cars on Post Office Property, Cars in GunFree School Zone areas where person has no LTC/CHL issued by the State in which the school is located...

JP171 wrote:

Solaris wrote:

JP171 wrote:yes it is legal notice, the law for hotels was changed and requires that if they don't want weapons then it has to be done at the time of the online reservation. so yep its legal notice

No it is not legal notice as in 30.06. HB333 only requires they tell you up front their gun policy on their website. Gun policy could have nothing to do with lawful carry, could be as simple as saying no big game rifles allowed in rooms.

http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/83 ... 00333F.htm

keep on thinkin that and be a guest of the gray bar hotel, good luck with that

Lets see how many ways you are wrong.

1) Class C Misdemeanor - nobody is going to the "gray bar hotel".

2) 30.06 only applies if you are carrying under LTC. Transporting a firearm to/from your car does not require a LTC.

3) If websites counted, nobody would post signs. Everyone would put notice on their website.

Again read the law, they are only required to post their policy, nowhere in the law does it say the web posted policy is effective notice. Sign, Card, or written document is required. Websites are electronic documents. No court in Texas has ever upheld a website as valid 30.06 notice.

One more thing

If two months prior 0607 is on a website when you reserved room, but when you show up there are no signs anywhere, and no mention when you check in (oral or card), What is logical to conclude? It seems logical to me they now allow LTC. Being given notice at a prior point in time does not supercede current time. The idea you have to check websites before you enter property to know current policy is not realistic and I do no see how any court would uphold it.

Solaris wrote:

JP171 wrote:

Solaris wrote:

JP171 wrote:yes it is legal notice, the law for hotels was changed and requires that if they don't want weapons then it has to be done at the time of the online reservation. so yep its legal notice

No it is not legal notice as in 30.06. HB333 only requires they tell you up front their gun policy on their website. Gun policy could have nothing to do with lawful carry, could be as simple as saying no big game rifles allowed in rooms.

http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/83 ... 00333F.htm

keep on thinkin that and be a guest of the gray bar hotel, good luck with that

Lets see how many ways you are wrong.

1) Class C Misdemeanor - nobody is going to the "gray bar hotel".

2) 30.06 only applies if you are carrying under LTC. Transporting a firearm to/from your car does not require a LTC.

3) If websites counted, nobody would post signs. Everyone would put notice on their website.

Again read the law, they are only required to post their policy, nowhere in the law does it say the web posted policy is effective notice. Sign, Card, or written document is required. Websites are electronic documents. No court in Texas has ever upheld a website as valid 30.06 notice.

No Texas court has ever NOT upheld a website as not being valid 30.06 notice, just to be fair.

chamberc wrote:
No Texas court has ever NOT upheld a website as not being valid 30.06 notice, just to be fair.

Can anyone show even one arrest/conviction? Until that happens, I would say it is just another silly internet mental masturbation theory.

And at Class C and no more than $200, who cares? I have gotten speeding tickets for more than that.

Solaris wrote:

JP171 wrote:

Solaris wrote:

JP171 wrote:yes it is legal notice, the law for hotels was changed and requires that if they don't want weapons then it has to be done at the time of the online reservation. so yep its legal notice

No it is not legal notice as in 30.06. HB333 only requires they tell you up front their gun policy on their website. Gun policy could have nothing to do with lawful carry, could be as simple as saying no big game rifles allowed in rooms.

http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/83 ... 00333F.htm

keep on thinkin that and be a guest of the gray bar hotel, good luck with that

Lets see how many ways you are wrong.

1) Class C Misdemeanor - nobody is going to the "gray bar hotel".

2) 30.06 only applies if you are carrying under LTC. Transporting a firearm to/from your car does not require a LTC.

3) If websites counted, nobody would post signs. Everyone would put notice on their website.

Again read the law, they are only required to post their policy, nowhere in the law does it say the web posted policy is effective notice. Sign, Card, or written document is required. Websites are electronic documents. No court in Texas has ever upheld a website as valid 30.06 notice.

I don't know if a website is considered an electronic document or not. I believe it now is accepted as such by definition. I'm not sure. But for the sake of this discussion let's assume it is. What makes that document suffice as effective notice...or not...is whether its delivery to you was a compulsory prerequisite to finalizing your contractual agreement to rent the room from the hotel.
If it was then you have been notified as part of your agreement with the hotel. If not, and they just casually tell you to check the site for information on their policies then I don't believe you have been notified because there is nothing to compel you to read the site.

If there is a requirement as part of the contract that you abide by all hotel policies and you do not do that as you agreed to do, AND that notice is on the policy site then you have been notified.

Again, assuming that an electronic page is considered a document according to the state of Texas and therefore fulfills .06/.07.

If it is not then I agree there has been no notification.

By the way, before we go down a protracted argument about web pages being a legal document....that won't be defined anywhere in the LTC rules...it will be a parts of civil procedure or rules of evidence or some other definition in state statutes.

tex

Solaris wrote:One more thing

If two months prior 0607 is on a website when you reserved room, but when you show up there are no signs anywhere, and no mention when you check in (oral or card), What is logical to conclude? It seems logical to me they now allow LTC. Being given notice at a prior point in time does not supercede current time. The idea you have to check websites before you enter property to know current policy is not realistic and I do no see how any court would uphold it.

This to me is the best defense should you get the $200 fine. If they don't give you notice at sign in or make you sign some sort of document confirming you know/understand their gun policy, I don't see how a website would be binding, things change, websites take time and money to update.

Tex

I understand your point. The original intent of the law had nothing to do with CHL, and was to protect hunters and shooters from being evicted for carrying Longguns to/from there room. So it is a far stretch to think it was legislature intent to make web postings valid 06/07 notice. It is fun to theorize on the Internet about it, but can find nobody in the real legal world who practices it.

It's binding if you have legally bound yourself to a contract that has a contractual requirement to abide by the hotel policies. YOU agreed to this.

Example, you sign in and on the small print of the sign in sheet that no one ever reads it tells requires that you abide by all of the policies of the hotel. As you arrive in the room there is a 30.06/.07 notification and other policies on hotel letterhead siting on the desk.

Do you think you have a contractual obligation to abide by those policies? YOU are the one who signed a legally binding contract, small print and all, where you agreed, sight unseen (foolishly I might add) to abide by their policies. Whether a letterhead or website is a different topic for a different thread.

Everyone should be careful, of course, of how they throw their signature around.

tex

Solaris wrote:Tex

I understand your point. The original intent of the law had nothing to do with CHL, and was to protect hunters and shooters from being evicted for carrying Longguns to/from there room. So it is a far stretch to think it was legislature intent to make web postings valid 06/07 notice. It is fun to theorize on the Internet about it, but can find nobody in the real legal world who practices it.

I'm not sure you do. You signed three electronic afadavit legally binding "documents" on line to get your LTC if you recall

tex

thetexan wrote:It's binding if you have legally bound yourself to a contract that has a contractual requirement to abide by the hotel policies. YOU agreed to this.

Example, you sign in and on the small print of the sign in sheet that no one ever reads it tells requires that you abide by all of the policies of the hotel. As you arrive in the room there is a 30.06/.07 notification and other policies on hotel letterhead siting on the desk.

Do you think you have a contractual obligation to abide by those policies? YOU are the one who signed a legally binding contract, small print and all, where you agreed, sight unseen (foolishly I might add) to abide by their policies. Whether a letterhead or website is a different topic for a different thread.

Everyone should be careful, of course, of how they throw their signature around.

tex

But there is NO CRIME unless (web) document conforms to the 30.06/7 wording or they post a sign.

I absolutely agree. I think there are several ways many of us have not yet encountered (such as hotels with gun Policies) which reveal new ways to implement the notification procedures we may not have thought about or discussed before.

One example. How does a diner prohibit guns without a sign? Simple, the hostess simply announces to everyone as they come thru the door that no guns are allowed.


So there are some yet undiscovered details we may run into as we proceed with this adventure.


tex