TexasCHLforum.com

nightmare69 wrote:

Javier730 wrote:

nightmare69 wrote:

chamberc wrote:

nightmare69 wrote:There needs to be some stipulation that allows LE to be able to revoke their license if we can prove they are a gang member.

"LE" citizens should not have any allowance to revoke anything. That's what courts are for.

We should be able to fill out the paperwork to send to DPS as we do now when we arrest a LTC holder. Then they suspend the license pending final disposition. The process should be the same for a gang member.

Does anyone know if they ask if you are a gang member on the LTC application?

How would you prove someone is in a street gang if they aren't caught committing crimes? What probable cause do you use to stop and identify someone, if they aren't committing crimes. You would need their identification so you know who's name to submit to the DPS. Do you stop someone who you believe may look like a gang member?

I work for a private university and can usually tell if someone doesn't belong there. It's not hard to spot gang tattoos and clothing style. On private property I can tell someone to leave because I don't like the color of their shoes so yes, I approach these people regularly.

Well it might work in the private university you work for but that really has nothing to do with the question I asked.

You said there should be a process where LEOs can submit someone they suspect is a gang member to the DPS to have that person license suspended until final disposition. My question was, what probable cause would you have stop and get these suspected gang members identification if they weren't committing any crimes?

Would you go by their tattoos and clothing style? What if they have one without the other? You do know people have the right to express themselves here in the US, right?

nightmare69 wrote:

Javier730 wrote:

nightmare69 wrote:

chamberc wrote:

nightmare69 wrote:There needs to be some stipulation that allows LE to be able to revoke their license if we can prove they are a gang member.

"LE" citizens should not have any allowance to revoke anything. That's what courts are for.

We should be able to fill out the paperwork to send to DPS as we do now when we arrest a LTC holder. Then they suspend the license pending final disposition. The process should be the same for a gang member.

Does anyone know if they ask if you are a gang member on the LTC application?

How would you prove someone is in a street gang if they aren't caught committing crimes? What probable cause do you use to stop and identify someone, if they aren't committing crimes. You would need their identification so you know who's name to submit to the DPS. Do you stop someone who you believe may look like a gang member?

I work for a private university and can usually tell if someone doesn't belong there. It's not hard to spot gang tattoos and clothing style. On private property I can tell someone to leave because I don't like the color of their shoes so yes, I approach these people regularly.

Now here is a question about the university you work for. Do they have a dress code they want you to enforce? Are prohibited colors mentioned or do they let you use your personal preference when it comes to deciding what is appropriate? If they don't have a dress code, why harass people over their clothes?

When you approach these people, like you mentioned, do you say, "I don't like the color of your shoes, get off the property" or "I don't like the color of your shoes, let me see some identification"?

The university has a dress code and anything considered "gang related" is strictly prohibited. I just ask for ID or names in an consensual encounter. If they refuse (which rarely happens) and they are not a student, then they are issued a criminal trespass warning and escorted off property as per Dept and university policy.

nightmare69 ,

Some of us (for instance, you...) can identify a dirtbag when you see a dirtbag.

Abraham wrote:nightmare69 ,

Some of us (for instance, you...) can identify a dirtbag when you see a dirtbag.

I can too...

Javier730 wrote:

Abraham wrote:nightmare69 ,

Some of us (for instance, you...) can identify a dirtbag when you see a dirtbag.

I can too...

Dito

Abraham wrote:nightmare69 ,

Some of us (for instance, you...) can identify a dirtbag when you see a dirtbag.

After you've worked in a jail for awhile, there're not hard to spot. You learn what to look for in their color of clothing, ink, hand gestures, and what side of the body the hang their rag off of.

Abraham wrote:nightmare69 ,
Some of us (for instance, you...) can identify a dirtbag when you see a dirtbag.

I'll admit that I can't. Some of the biggest dirtbags on the planet tend to wear suits and ties and are much more dangerous to our wallets than a someone who wears less acceptable forms of clothing.

I'm fine with LTC getting taken away if gang membership is proven through a judicial process. I just don't want to shift the burden of proof the other way by abusing the legal process.

What do you do with "gang members" who turn their lives around and have no criminal record? Are they banned for life?

"Shall not be infringed"

Wish they wouldn't have made it so ambiguous.

cb1000rider wrote:

Abraham wrote:nightmare69 ,
Some of us (for instance, you...) can identify a dirtbag when you see a dirtbag.

I'll admit that I can't. Some of the biggest dirtbags on the planet tend to wear suits and ties and are much more dangerous to our wallets than a someone who wears less acceptable forms of clothing.

I'm fine with LTC getting taken away if gang membership is proven through a judicial process. I just don't want to shift the burden of proof the other way by abusing the legal process.

What do you do with "gang members" who turn their lives around and have no criminal record? Are they banned for life?

I believe after 5yrs of a clean record they are taken off the gang information system in Texas. I've applied for access to this great system.

nightmare69 wrote:

cb1000rider wrote:

Abraham wrote:nightmare69 ,
Some of us (for instance, you...) can identify a dirtbag when you see a dirtbag.

I'll admit that I can't. Some of the biggest dirtbags on the planet tend to wear suits and ties and are much more dangerous to our wallets than a someone who wears less acceptable forms of clothing.

I'm fine with LTC getting taken away if gang membership is proven through a judicial process. I just don't want to shift the burden of proof the other way by abusing the legal process.

What do you do with "gang members" who turn their lives around and have no criminal record? Are they banned for life?

I believe after 5yrs of a clean record they are taken off the gang information system in Texas. I've applied for access to this great system.

to address each of the highlighted statements:
1. Just being a "dirtbag" isn't an illegal act. Until they've committed a criminal offense they are just a law abiding "dirtbag" with the same rights as anyone else.
2. I can't even agree with revoking a license just because they are proven to be a member of a particular group if they've never been arrested and convicted of anything. I personally can't stand rap music, sagging pants, sideways caps, or tattoos...but I don't have the right to tell others what they can listen to or wear or do to their own bodies as long as they are not committing illegal acts.
3. This whole discussion was about people that ALREADY have a CLEAN record...which was frustrating your desire to revoke their LTC.

talltex wrote:

nightmare69 wrote:

cb1000rider wrote:

Abraham wrote:nightmare69 ,
Some of us (for instance, you...) can identify a dirtbag when you see a dirtbag.

I'll admit that I can't. Some of the biggest dirtbags on the planet tend to wear suits and ties and are much more dangerous to our wallets than a someone who wears less acceptable forms of clothing.

I'm fine with LTC getting taken away if gang membership is proven through a judicial process. I just don't want to shift the burden of proof the other way by abusing the legal process.

What do you do with "gang members" who turn their lives around and have no criminal record? Are they banned for life?

I believe after 5yrs of a clean record they are taken off the gang information system in Texas. I've applied for access to this great system.

to address each of the highlighted statements:
1. Just being a "dirtbag" isn't an illegal act. Until they've committed a criminal offense they are just a law abiding "dirtbag" with the same rights as anyone else.
2. I can't even agree with revoking a license just because they are proven to be a member of a particular group if they've never been arrested and convicted of anything. I personally can't stand rap music, sagging pants, sideways caps, or tattoos...but I don't have the right to tell others what they can listen to or wear or do to their own bodies as long as they are not committing illegal acts.
3. This whole discussion was about people that ALREADY have a CLEAN record...which was frustrating your desire to revoke their LTC.

I agree, I'm surprised this thread has gone this long.

talltex wrote:

nightmare69 wrote:

cb1000rider wrote:

Abraham wrote:nightmare69 ,
Some of us (for instance, you...) can identify a dirtbag when you see a dirtbag.

I'll admit that I can't. Some of the biggest dirtbags on the planet tend to wear suits and ties and are much more dangerous to our wallets than a someone who wears less acceptable forms of clothing.

I'm fine with LTC getting taken away if gang membership is proven through a judicial process. I just don't want to shift the burden of proof the other way by abusing the legal process.

What do you do with "gang members" who turn their lives around and have no criminal record? Are they banned for life?

I believe after 5yrs of a clean record they are taken off the gang information system in Texas. I've applied for access to this great system.

to address each of the highlighted statements:
1. Just being a "dirtbag" isn't an illegal act. Until they've committed a criminal offense they are just a law abiding "dirtbag" with the same rights as anyone else.
2. I can't even agree with revoking a license just because they are proven to be a member of a particular group if they've never been arrested and convicted of anything. I personally can't stand rap music, sagging pants, sideways caps, or tattoos...but I don't have the right to tell others what they can listen to or wear or do to their own bodies as long as they are not committing illegal acts.
3. This whole discussion was about people that ALREADY have a CLEAN record...which was frustrating your desire to revoke their LTC.

I also don't like sagging pants, sideways caps, etc. but people can express themselves and it doesn't matter what I think. They have the right to express themselves just like everyone else. Not everyone who dresses that way is a criminal or gang member. I would never think about wearing my cap sideways but I shouldn't lose my right to carry a weapon to defend my family if for some crazy reason I decide to turn my cap 90 degrees.

Like I mentioned before, this whole wanting to take peoples LTCs just because they are some LEOs idea of "gang member" reminds me of the no guns for those on the "no fly list". The people who makes the"no fly list" will surely have say of who goes on the "no LTC because hes a gang member list" if one is ever made.

There is a way to label those guys as gang members so that DPS would know. I use this system everyday. It's called TxGang. You might want to look into it.