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Does the Tazer make a bang sound when it is fired?

She may have had her finger on the trigger when the taxer was fired and reacted to the noise.

TexasTornado wrote:What really sticks out to me in this case is that one officer chose to draw a non-leathal option where the other chose the deadly force option. To me personally this looks like a breakdown in training

I've really lost sympathy for the "breakdown in training" excuse these days, largely because I've personally been to two firearms training schools and two self-defense oriented dojos that offered free or deep discounted classes for LE, and of those four, one dojo has had two cops take them up on it. The others will get maybe one LE student every 2-3 years. These are classes worth several hundred being offered for a $20 registration fee, or dojo memberships up to $80/mo offered for a one-time $25-40 to cover the cost of a gi.

Looking around at instructors I haven't had the pleasure of training with, nearly every one of them has a reminder on their FB page that LE get free memberships, and when I've asked, none of them got good turnout on that unless they're connected to an academy, and even that pretty much only gets them cadets and first year rookies.

If your job has the potential to put you in a position to take someone's life, you have a basic responsibility as a human to find training in every reasonable alternative.

I know that they go though a little training and should know how to react but to me it is still like anyone else if you feel your life in danger then you have the right to protect it , i hope that if this officer is truly not guilty they don't try and make an example out of her . I think i head that the police cheif is not going to release the body cam footage so that kind of makes me think she may have jumped the trigger a little.

KD5NRH wrote:

TexasTornado wrote:What really sticks out to me in this case is that one officer chose to draw a non-leathal option where the other chose the deadly force option. To me personally this looks like a breakdown in training

I've really lost sympathy for the "breakdown in training" excuse these days, largely because I've personally been to two firearms training schools and two self-defense oriented dojos that offered free or deep discounted classes for LE, and of those four, one dojo has had two cops take them up on it. The others will get maybe one LE student every 2-3 years. These are classes worth several hundred being offered for a $20 registration fee, or dojo memberships up to $80/mo offered for a one-time $25-40 to cover the cost of a gi.

Looking around at instructors I haven't had the pleasure of training with, nearly every one of them has a reminder on their FB page that LE get free memberships, and when I've asked, none of them got good turnout on that unless they're connected to an academy, and even that pretty much only gets them cadets and first year rookies.

If your job has the potential to put you in a position to take someone's life, you have a basic responsibility as a human to find training in every reasonable alternative.

Let me be very clear on this...breakdown of training is NEVER an excuse, nor is it a root cause, but it does happen. When training fails it is the duty of the department to ask why and to correct the problem be that through adding to officers initial training, additional residual training or at very least making it possible for officers to easily attend training at the outside sources you mentioned. There may not even be a singular solution but many small solutions that come together. Either way we can not simply ignore or dismiss that "breakdown[s] in training" do occur and we need to learn from them when they do.

One other thing to consider here with regards to the officer choosing to use lethal versus non-lethal force is that not every officer has that option. She may be one that did not have a taser that she could have chosen instead of her firearm.

A friend of mine, retired DPD Sergeant, went most of his career without a taser. Within his last 5-8 years, I forget when exactly, he was issued a taser. I think he may have had it for 6 months or so before getting it taken away. I don't think that ever shot anyone with his firearm, but apparently he used that taser quite a bit and they took it away because they thought he used it too much. He's never said how many times he hit someone with the taser.

The chief has released video to both the man's family and to DA. Doesn't say if any of the video released was the office's body cam footage. The statement says that the video shows the man walking away from Officer Shelby with his hands in the air. I think the theory that she may have "unintentionally" discharged her weapon may very well be valid. She was charged with "manslaughter"...not first degree murder...causing death unintentionally is the very basis of a charge of manslaughter. "Accidental, Unintentional or Negligent" in front of the word "discharge" is not a good defense to the charge of "manslaughter".

What happened to the case of shooting a black man shot in his car and slumped back in his car. I think he was also a CHLer. Was there any charges?

talltex wrote:The chief has released video to both the man's family and to DA. Doesn't say if any of the video released was the office's body cam footage. The statement says that the video shows the man walking away from Officer Shelby with his hands in the air. I think the theory that she may have "unintentionally" discharged her weapon may very well be valid. She was charged with "manslaughter"...not first degree murder...causing death unintentionally is the very basis of a charge of manslaughter. "Accidental, Unintentional or Negligent" in front of the word "discharge" is not a good defense to the charge of "manslaughter".

I also considered the BART incident with Oscar Grant, wondering if she meant to pull a tazer originally, but I don't think that's the case here.

Tulsa DA Filed Charges Against Betty Shelby Before Cops Finished Their Investigation

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/09/24 ... stigation/

This could also be a case of Sympathetic Muscle Response. That maybe is what happened in this video when the female officer rlaxed her stance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOI9ahGxMfk

Your trigger finger reacts the same as your non-trigger finger, and when he fired his taser she may have flinched and tightened her grip, causing the trigger finger to tighten as well.

There is a good article on the incident and SMR here https://www.policeone.com/training/arti ... ng-Points/

Pawpaw wrote:Tulsa DA Filed Charges Against Betty Shelby Before Cops Finished Their Investigation

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/09/24 ... stigation/

Assuming the same circumstances, I believe one of us would have been charged before an investigation began. Regardless of the rational as to why she pulled the trigger and killed a victim that was not posing an immediate threat to her life, she violated several rules of handgun handling. First she acquired a target (if she did not intend to fire). Secondly she put her finger inside the trigger guard and on the trigger. Therefore, she must have intended to fire. She is either a very good shot, a very lucky ( or unlucky shot depending on the outcome of the case).

Keith B wrote:Your trigger finger reacts the same as your non-trigger finger, and when he fired his taser she may have flinched and tightened her grip, causing the trigger finger to tighten as well.

There is a good article on the incident and SMR here https://www.policeone.com/training/arti ... ng-Points/

And a dated but still pertinent and related article from Force Science Institute: http://www.forcescience.org/fsnews/3.html.

Part of it briefly describes a study by Christopher Heim that included 33 male and 13 female officers of varying years of service who were given a SIG P226 equipped with sensors on the grip and trigger. This was a live role-play scenario where they were sent one at a time into a room to arrest a "suspect" following departmental regs and acting in way they thought appropriate. During the scenario, 34 of 46 officers drew the SIG; one intentionally fired. Of the other 33, all insisted their fingers never went inside the trigger guard, per protocol.

The sensor data showed that seven of the 33, over 21%, had touched index finger to trigger with enough pressure to activate the sensor. The officer who chose to shoot said he'd kept his finger well clear of the trigger until the moment he decided to fire. But the sensor data showed he'd touched the trigger twice before firing, and had let let his finger rest on the trigger for a significant period of time before intentionally pulling it.

Nobody can have enough training and practice. Unfortunately, not many PDs have the resources to provide extensive, ongoing firearms training for any but possibly speciality officers, like SWAT. I'm not going to pull this thread off topic, but I believe the environment we're seeing now will force many law enforcement departments to reallocate budgetary funds--they are unlikely to get new funding--for individual interaction and social training, taking the budget money from other areas. Social sensitivity training is not going to do a thing to improve firearm discipline under stressful conditions...and may even get some officers killed because they will wait to deploy their weapons until after they should have.

philip964 wrote:Does the Tazer make a bang sound when it is fired?

She may have had her finger on the trigger when the taxer was fired and reacted to the noise.

It makes a noticeable "pop" sound.

I could swear I posted this before, but I can't find it now.

It appears she might have been justified in shooting him. Just something to consider instead of condemning her out of hand.

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/09/22 ... -crutcher/

Pawpaw wrote:I could swear I posted this before, but I can't find it now.

It appears she might have been justified in shooting him. Just something to consider instead of condemning her out of hand.

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/09/22 ... -crutcher/

Your article seems to contradict it's self. In one sentence the author says the window being up or down is a red herring, in another he says she shot when the victim reached inside the car ( insinuating the window was open and that is why she shot). Every close up I have seen of the window shows it clearly closed. Why would she be so scared with all the back up she had?