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Re: A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:40 pm
by grim-bob
- DPS stated that the information taken about CHL holders should not in any way identify the person as a CHL holder, and they agreed.
I think it is no better than at the end. The issue is not how or what they are collecting regarding CHL holders. It is the fact that they are collecting information at all as a requirement of admittance. Unless they are planning to collect the information of everyone entering into the fairly legally they shouldn't collect CHL holders. The fact that only CHL holders information is being collected makes it de facto that the information is that of CHLs holders. the guise that there is nothing that identifies the person as a CHL holder doesn't change anything....

I don't care if the person who gains access to information after the fact knows if I am a CHL holder. I don't want that person to ever have opportunity to get the information at all.

Re: A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:20 pm
by Dragonfighter
I think the DPS response is echoing their policy on what information is considered publicly available. I.E. the number of chl holders, distribution (# per county) and demographics (gender, age brackets). I don't think it means they can gather information FROM CHL holders nor should they have access to information that is identifiable.

Re: A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:49 am
by gemini
Dragonfighter wrote:I think the DPS response is echoing their policy on what information is considered publicly available. I.E. the number of chl holders, distribution (# per county) and demographics (gender, age brackets). I don't think it means they can gather information FROM CHL holders nor should they have access to information that is identifiable.
I actually spoke with Jean O'Shaw (DPS attorney for CHL) as did my attorney. Her position was that because the State Fair entity had leased the Fair Park, they basically could require whatever they wanted (ie. CHL holders name, address etc). She was
not interested in hearing any of the reasons (quoted from the DPS Concealed Handgun Laws booklet) why I thought it might be against existing state law.
Robert Smith (State Fair attorney) was also contacted. His refusal to respond and identify the specific rules to be applied equally at all gate entrances was/is an effort to make the problem just "go away". The State Fair changed 1 line on their website.:http://www.bigtex.com/generalinfo/faqs/bring.asp

under "may I bring"

...a gun? No, with one exception.
A person holding a valid concealed handgun license is permitted to enter onto State Fair property with his/her concealed handgun. Licenses will be examined at the entrances. License holder's name will be made accessible to law enforcement officials. Handguns will not be permitted inside the Cotton Bowl, a facility defined under Texas Penal Code 46.035 as "the premises where a high school, collegiate or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place." We want the Fair to be a fun and safe experience.

Anytime a LEO views your CHL license your name is made available to him. But the requirement to allow Fair officials to record anything about you (CHL)? Is that not a list?

Sen. Dan Patrick: "I contacted the Department of Public Safety (DPS) regarding your question about bringing a gun to the State Fair with a Concealed Handgun License (CHL). Here is what they told me in response:

- DPS spoke with the Counsel for the State Fair and told him about concerns regarding the collection of personal information of CHL holders. This had already been done back in Oct.
- The State Fair will now look into this situation to make sure all policies are uniform including the way any information is gathered regarding CHL holders in the park. The way information is gathered regarding CHL holders....?
- DPS stated that the information taken about CHL holders should not in any way identify the person as a CHL holder, and they agreed. I'm sorry, if this statement isn't political, lawyer, double talk I don't know what is. But, how do you take CHL information from someone, and then not in any way be able to identify the person (CHL)?

I'm really glad Sen Patrick's office sent you a reply.

Re: A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:37 am
by AEA
WHERE..........

WHERE is the TSRA?
And......if they do wake up and realize this is something they should be involved in, they should get involved now, not next year!

You can see that I have removed the TSRA from my sig. My membership expires soon and I will not be renewing. The reason why is evident in this thread.

Re: A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:12 am
by blue
Thank You Gemini for your efforts.
Thank you to all the others who have helped on this matter.

I also am VERY DISSAPPOINTED in the DPS response.

I have to pay for my CHL, no one else pays for it.
-MY CHL ID card is ONLY for Law Enforcement Officers use. (and gun dealers!)
- NO ONE ELSE HAS A NEED TO KNOW FOR ANY REASON. PERIOD!

DPS is Blocked from releasing our personal information, By the LAWS passed a few years ago, for the protection of the individual CHLer.
For the very same reasons we need to expand the laws to block ANYONE from Collecting, Possessing, or Distributing ANY CHL information, Making it a FELONY with a stiff fine and JAIL TIME! This applys to a person, group, or a company. (Excepting DPS ONLY)

Also remove all info on the card itself except Photo, Name, Card number. (That is all that a LEO needs to check it out).

Re: A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:17 am
by blue
x2,
TSRA, NRA, others...................(crickets)

Re: A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:17 am
by Right2Carry
AEA wrote:WHERE..........

WHERE is the TSRA?
And......if they do wake up and realize this is something they should be involved in, they should get involved now, not next year!

You can see that I have removed the TSRA from my sig. My membership expires soon and I will not be renewing. The reason why is evident in this thread.

I have to agree with you on this. I might excuse the NRA for not getting involved in this issue, but TSRA should have been all over this from the word go. This is the type of abuse that TSRA should be preventing and getting involved in.

Re: A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:00 pm
by Dragonfighter
Folks,

Just Got a reponse back from the DPS about the complaint I filed:
<SNIP>, thanks for the information. Currently we are working a massive
case on Platinum Security. We will add these issues to our list.

Douglas Whitworth, Sergeant
Texas DPS

-----Original Message-----
To: PSB_DallasComplaint
Subject: Platinum ESI at State Fair of Texas

Since Penal Code 30.06 has been modified to prevent premises owned or
leased by government entities from denying entry to CHL holders, carry
to the State Fair (situated in a high crime area) has been common.
Until now, a discreet display to the gate attendant/screener was
sufficient to either be admitted or quietly escorted to the posted
police officer to verify the credentials. Though exceeding the
Government Code (Sec. 411.205) many CHL bearers (myself included) have
conceded to display or credentials as it has been discreet and no
personal information was divulged.

This year the Platinum ESI personnel will, when presented with the
credentials, single out the bearer and take them aside. They are then
subjected to scrutiny by a "supervisor" and personally identifiable
information including name, address and DOB are collected on a Steno
pad. When asked, the gate personnel could not account for what happens
to the information after this step. Refusal to disclose this
information will (and has) result in an embarrassing "conference" with
other supervisors. These "meetings" in front of the public are riddled
with open disdain for the CHL bearer and ultimately entry is denied
unless the information is submitted. Further attempts to garner
assurances of the security and/or destruction of the gathered
information has resulted in evasive and discourteous treatment. Further
any assurances as to the security, dissemination and destruction of this
information has been refused.

My complaint has three main tenants:

1) This singling out and removal from line of a CHL bearer exposes one
as being armed and violates the letter and intent of the law concerning
concealed carry of weapons.

2) The gathering and storage of of private information on CHL bearers
far exceeds any possible authority for the display of credentials and
privacy protection afforded CHL bearers. (GC 411.205 and 411.192).

3) With no clear assurance or accountability, the potential for
harassment or identity theft is massive if the information gathered thus
far is not securely destroyed and as a result is improperly disseminated
and/or "stolen".

I respectfully ask that your office investigate, censure or take
appropriate action to prevent further abuses and to insure the
destruction of private information they have already gathered.

Thank You,
Name Removed

Re: A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:08 pm
by joe817
WOW!!!! Good job Dragonfighter! :clapping: :thumbs2: :thumbs2:

Your email was excellent. Perfect wording and structure. And the response you got back has only 22 words in it, it speaks volumes.

Thank you for your efforts. :txflag:

Re: A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:05 pm
by C-dub
Outstanding! I only hope it is resolved before the next millennium.

Re: A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:27 am
by RPB
Great letter, thanks.

By the way ....

http://www.bigtex.com/aboutus/history/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
To protect this valuable community asset, the Texas State Fair spurned offers from developers and sold its property to the City of Dallas in 1904 under an agreement that set aside a period each fall to hold the annual exposition.

State Fair, where the PUBLIC property is leased out to some PRIVATE company who in effect practices a "constructive eviction" or rather a "constructive prohibition to enter" unless you allow them to illegally (in my layman's opinion) collect your private personal information at the discretion of the PRIVATE company who leased the PUBLIC Property which we have a right to use.

THIS concerns the State Fair as it relates to a First Amendment right (DOES THIS SOUND FAMILIAR?)
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=38355" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The city's response was that since it leases the property to the separate organization, State Fair of Texas, Inc ., each year, the fair actually is a private event on private property and Rundus and others "had no constitutional rights inside the fair grounds." "In its ruling yesterday the federal court determined that the Texas State Fair is a public place where constitutional rights are protected; as a result of the ruling, Mr. Rundus and others are now free to share their faith inside the fair grounds," the law firm said.

But at this point in time, no one seems to have remembered that federal ruling. Assuming that ruling wasn't overturned, The City and Private companies seem to have selective memory.

If it is ruled that they in fact do have a right to collect info, they should be as accountable for your Information as any Healthcare provider is under HIPAA, and provide each person they collect info from the same documentation, disclosures and protections anyone subject to HIPAA regulations are required to do, with the same liabilities in case of unlawful use or dissemination or disclosure of your personal private info.
Including "Privacy Policy Disclosures" which everyone, including banks, credit card comanies and pretty much everyone are required to give you with regard to their use of your personal private information.

If they don't first give me their "Privacy Policy Disclosures" how can I possibly make an educated decision about whether to divulge my personal private info to them in the first place.

Of course, since it is Public Property, essentially a city park, and cities can't prohibit CHLs from carrying, the issue should have never come up..... but since it did ... because of the "constructive/conditional prohibition, unless you ...."

The city attorney SHOULD HAVE just informed anyone leasing the property, in writing, or as part of the lease language, that they are subject to the State and Federal laws regarding city property, but since he didn't, by taking the same position the Federal Court ruled against years ago .... it is costing the State time and money .

If our Legistaors did not want us to carry at the State Fair, they wouldn't have been so careful in defining an Amusement park, wouldn't have made it so we can carry in all city parks, and now we are constructively conditionally denied admittance to a State Fair on PUBLIC property were we should be allowed, without even the consideration of a discloure statement as to Privacy Policies.

The above is my layman's opinion, based upon very precursory research, and not to be construed as legal advice or legal opinion, I'm not a lawyer.

Re: A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:30 am
by srothstein
I just read the Rundus court opinion instead of the news article. I thoguht it might be applicable to what we have been discussing here, but it truly is of limited applicability. We still have the major point of debate on whether or not the collection of CHL information is legal or permissible.

The Rundus case was brought against the State Fair of Texas (SFOT) and the City under 42 USC 1983. Section 1983 is the federal civil rights law making it illegal for people to violate our rights under color of law. The key phrase in it is "under color of law". As pointed out in rundus, that means it has to be a government based action. The question in Rundus is whether or not the City was closely tied enough to the decision to make it a government decision. Everyone agreed that it was just an SFOT decision, so it was legal.

The decision barely applies to this case. The only real city action is providing security. So, for us, it comes down to two questions. The first question is if SFOT can ban CHLs at the fair. It appears to be illegal the way I read the law, and it appears that even SFOT has agreed it cannot do this. The second question then becomes operative. Is it an effective ban because we are carrying if we are banned for refusing to give the information? I am not convinced that the court would see this as illegal, though I think it is. A very good lawyer could make this argument either way.

But in either case, it would appear that a 1983 action would be the inappropriate type of law suit. We would do better in state court since the city is no making the policy decisions. This also avoids us bringing in the civil rights aspect that has not yet been decided (Second Amendment applying to cities and right to carry over right to own). A state court could just rule on the application of 30.06.

As for the privacy policy, it is a bad argument. HIPAA does not apply since we are the only ones who see these as medical devices. :lol: The other places that are required to give privacy notices are all financial. We can request it but there is no law requiring it. We would lose in court using that as an argument, I would think.

Re: A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:49 am
by RPB
Thanks Steve :clapping:

Like I said, I just read this thread yesterday and did a very precursory brainstorming session and 5 minutes of research where I found that 2006 ruling :mrgreen:
I was unaware of the final ruling in 2009 where they told Rundus to go jump in the lake and take his rights with him regarding The Texas State UNFair

You da man !!! :patriot: :txflag:

Re: A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:41 am
by SigMom
Just reading this whole saga, wow. how disappointing. Good for you for sticking to your guns! My family went on opening day and my husband was searched with the wand and his gun was never even detected. We were actually pretty appalled. They didn't detect it so we didn't offer up the proof he is licenced to carry there. Pretty crazy!! he carries an XD so not much metal. Still though, their metal detector shoulda gone off.