US Military Rifle Scopes Inscribed With Bible Verses

[The Annoyed Man]

Looks like it has already started: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,583508,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And this is exactly what I predicted would happen, and that is why the fools who raised this issue in the first place created a problem where no problem previously existed. They are fools of the nth magnitude.

[bizarrenormality]

I thought the Koran calls Jesus a prophet and the messiah.

[Beiruty]

I thought the Koran calls Jesus a prophet and the messiah.

True and we humbly ask our Creator,God, to make us one of his obedient servant the day he is back on this earth. Ameen.

[marksiwel]

I thought the Koran calls Jesus a prophet and the messiah.

Kinda, Kinda not. Depends on who you ask. Google it for yourself there are some interesting things said about it.
Then again how the Muslims we are fighting interrupt the Koran the same way the Westboro Baptist church interrupts the bible.

[bizarrenormality]

I hate when people interrupt the bible.

[marksiwel]

I hate when people interrupt the bible.

Now theres a discussion that would break many a forum rules

[tallmike]

Why is everyone here talking about this as if the only issue is whether or not the enemy likes the phrases? What about the troops? What about the non-christian troops that use this equipment and their rights of religious freedom? This is not an issue that was brought up by the enemy or some foreign troop being trained on our equipment, it took an american soldier to recognize this and report it.

There are muslims, wiccans, atheists, agnostics, etc. in our military that go out there everyday and fight this war right alongside their christian brothers. Asking them to go out and fight this war with a religious reference on their weapon is insulting.

[57Coastie]

Why is everyone here talking about this as if the only issue is whether or not the enemy likes the phrases? What about the troops? What about the non-christian troops that use this equipment and their rights of religious freedom? This is not an issue that was brought up by the enemy or some foreign troop being trained on our equipment, it took an american soldier to recognize this and report it.

There are muslims, wiccans, atheists, agnostics, etc. in our military that go out there everyday and fight this war right alongside their christian brothers. Asking them to go out and fight this war with a religious reference on their weapon is insulting.

Finally. Thank you for cutting throuh "the fog of war," Mike.

Jim

[Big Tuna]

Asking them to go out and fight this war with a religious reference on their weapon is insulting.

Not half as insulting as putting a religious reference on the money they're paid.

[57Coastie]

Asking them to go out and fight this war with a religious reference on their weapon is insulting.

Not half as insulting as putting a religious reference on the money they're paid.

This has been regurgitated too many times now, and as Adolf Hitler once said, "If you repeat a lie enough times it will be believed by everone." If this must continue wthout a mod. stepping in, I am justified in giving a rebuttal.

"There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger."

Ever heard that before? Islam has no problem with "In God we trust." Muslims trust in their God as do Christians in theirs, but they call him Allah.

If our money carried a slogan reading "In Jesus Christ we trust" then there might be some merit in this repetitive untruth, but there is none now.

With respect,

Jim

[nitrogen]

57Coastie,

What about Atheists?

Part of living in a society is respecting other people's choices.

I don't have a problem with the "secret bible codes" on a weapon, or "In God We Trust" as long as our government doesn't mandate that I trust in God. It makes some people feel better, and it doesn't bother me.

[Oldgringo]

Hasn't this gone on long enough?

[57Coastie]

Me, too, Nitrogen. But we have thick skins, and are accustomed to all the religious preaching on this forum and elsewhere, and we go our way. I too wish that all the amendments were taken as seriously on this forum as is the Second.

Did you know that "God." and "Christian" appear nowhere in the US Constitution? So much for the arguments so often heard that ours was a nation built around one particular religious creed.

OldGringo,

We agree on something. You will see above that I practically begged a moderator to wake up, before we start shooting at each other.

Respectfully,

Jim

[The Annoyed Man]

57Coastie,

What about Atheists?

Part of living in a society is respecting other people's choices.

I don't have a problem with the "secret bible codes" on a weapon, or "In God We Trust" as long as our government doesn't mandate that I trust in God. It makes some people feel better, and it doesn't bother me.

And I think that is the point here. Nobody was forcing any non-Christian or non-religious person to believe in anything. "In God We Trust" on our currency does not mandate that you believe in God. The Trijicon folks were stating their beliefs, but they weren't forcing anyone else to believe it. No real harm was done by their doing that. I respect an atheist's right to not share my faith. But, conversely, if I were to claim that I am insulted because my Leupold rifle scope did not come with a Christian inscription on it, that would be pretty weak sauce. And that is why I cannot understand why an atheist would claim to be insulted because the ACOG he is issued has a cryptic reference to a biblical verse. Don't like it? File it off or ignore it. But claiming to be insulted by it is a pretty weak, in my opinion.

The reference I made to the In 'N Out Burger corporation in a previous post is a relevant example. If you turn their drink cups upside down and look on the inside of the bottom rim of the cup, you'll see a biblical verse reference printed there. They are a family owned business, and they do it for the same reasons that Trijicon does it. Now, In 'N Out makes one of the best hamburgers on the planet. Would anyone care that there was a biblical inscription on the bottom of the cup when they had a hankerin' for the best burger money can buy, washed down by an ice cold root beer? Heck no, gimme that juicy burger. Well, the ACOG scope occupies a similar niche the in the world of combat optics. They're one of the best (there are alternatives to choose from which do not have the markings). If you really need what the ACOG has to offer in a combat optic, does it really matter if there is a obscure biblical reference in tiny letters on the scope? Well, no, not really.

I keep saying, the problem isn't really the markings on the scope. The problem is the ginned up brouhaha over those markings, because that brouhaha has succeeded in bringing the markings to the attention of a bunch of folks who are just looking for reasons to be aggrieved so that they can kill more infidels in Allah's name. It was extremely unwise for Michael "Mikey" Weinstein and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation to get their unmentionables in a twist and make a stink over this. They should have just ignored it. That really would have been the more intelligent response. Instead, they have chosen to be aggrieved by it. We've had quite enough of the grievance industry in this country, in my opinion. But our enemies know how to use the Internet, and they do use it, and the very predictable result of Mr. Weinstein's aggrievement is a bunch of radical Muslims who were previously ignorant of the whole thing until he got involved, and who are now further aggrieved against infidels because of it. That's just stupid.

Respectfully,

Chris

[57Coastie]

In other words, Chris, "shoot the messenger."

"The point here" is not that we are making our enemy mad. The point here is that our mission over there, like it or not, is not "kill 'em all and sort it out later." While this term bothers me, because of where it originated, our mission is to pacify the population and turn the fight against militant Islamists over to moderate Islamists. We could not make a militant Islamist more mad with what is written on a scope which took him down if we tried. But must we make those we are training to be police and soldiers "mad" and give them evidence that our real mission is converting them to Christianity?

Witness the dumb Marine lieutenant PR type quoted as saying there is no problem here. I take that "dumb" back. I am confident that the Lieutenant said exactly what the dumb Colonel or other senior officer said to say. This senior officer is not with the program, and if there are more senior officers of that mindset it will not be long until they march out like the Soviets did -- or until your great grandchildren make that march.

Try to put yourself in the shoes of one of those young Muslims our forces are valiantly risking their lives trying to train to fight the Taliban. And then think, as a man of devoted faith, what your reaction would be if it were decided to engrave "ALLAHU AKBAR" on the weapons you're using for training. And then analyze your possible reaction.

You and I, who have respect for the other's views, are in a debate that cannot end. We are talking over each other's heads -- the two of us. Neither of us have the slightest chance of convincing the other that he is wrong, and the debate can only go on, and on, and on, and on.... If the problem here is "the mission," let's debate that -- on some other forum.

Which is, again, why I have twice tried to get the mod's attention, and I implore them to cut this off.

Really, I respect your views, but I can never agree with them -- nor you with mine. Are we trying to convince someone else, someone in the middle? Not at all. There is no one in the middle.

Jim