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Rikk101 wrote:hypothetically....say you came across a beat down like this in progress and you decided to try to stop it, and say you don't have a loud, intimidating voice..........what would be the implications of firing off a round to get their attention and cause them to stop beating the guy?

IANAL so you should read Texas Penal Code § 9.33 (which should be taught in the CHL class) and draw your own conclusions.

There's some truth to the statement that, if you fire a warning shot, you might as well put the round into one of the attackers to limit the risk to innocent bystanders.

cbr600 wrote:

Rikk101 wrote:hypothetically....say you came across a beat down like this in progress and you decided to try to stop it, and say you don't have a loud, intimidating voice..........what would be the implications of firing off a round to get their attention and cause them to stop beating the guy?

IANAL so you should read Texas Penal Code § 9.33 (which should be taught in the CHL class) and draw your own conclusions.

There's some truth to the statement that, if you fire a warning shot, you might as well put the round into one of the attackers to limit the risk to innocent bystanders.

You'll note that there is no justification in the Penal Code for firing a warning shot. You'll also find that the vast majority of well run police agencies specifically forbid officers from firing warning shots. There are reasons (and lots of experience - defined as what you get when you don't get what you want) behind this.

Warning shots have lots of negatives - and no positives that I can think of.

A warning shot, beyond the obvious fact that it presents a danger from a bullet that has to go somewhere, can also be presented in court or a grand jury proceeding as evidence that you didn't believe the use of deadly force was yet necessary at that point, but you recklessly discharged a round from a firearm anyway. That will be hard to refute and won't help your case at all.

The victim in the OP's video had both the need and the justification to take direct action to stop an impending attack by a clearly disparate force - 4 against one. Ability, jeopardy, and intent were all clearly present. If he had been armed and presentation of a firearm wasn't enough to stop the attack, he would have needed to start disabling attackers in a hurry in order to successfully protect himself from life threatening harm.

Yeah, one of the bad guys would be a good backstop for the "warning shot", remember, every kick could be the victim's last.

Zoomie wrote:Yeah, one of the bad guys would be a good backstop for the "warning shot", remember, every kick could be the victim's last.

in a situation like this, if i were to engage one bad guy and not immediately engage the others, i suspect they'd turn around with weapons of their own and open fire on me pretty quickly. the guys that got the beatdown in this video are lucky that the attackers either weren't armed or decided they didn't want to kill anyone that particular night.

rmr1923 wrote:

Zoomie wrote:Yeah, one of the bad guys would be a good backstop for the "warning shot", remember, every kick could be the victim's last.

in a situation like this, if i were to engage one bad guy and not immediately engage the others, i suspect they'd turn around with weapons of their own and open fire on me pretty quickly. the guys that got the beatdown in this video are lucky that the attackers either weren't armed or decided they didn't want to kill anyone that particular night.

While your take on the outcome of this course of action is quite likely correct (if they didn't find urgent business elsewhere as soon as the first attacker went down, even if they didn't shoot you, they'd still stomp you into the ground), why would you decide not to take advantage of your initiative and the element of surprise on your side and engage the rest of the threat before the threat was ended?

Excaliber wrote:

rmr1923 wrote:

Zoomie wrote:Yeah, one of the bad guys would be a good backstop for the "warning shot", remember, every kick could be the victim's last.

in a situation like this, if i were to engage one bad guy and not immediately engage the others, i suspect they'd turn around with weapons of their own and open fire on me pretty quickly. the guys that got the beatdown in this video are lucky that the attackers either weren't armed or decided they didn't want to kill anyone that particular night.

While your take on the outcome of this course of action is quite likely correct (if they didn't find urgent business elsewhere as soon as the first attacker went down, even if they didn't shoot you, they'd still stomp you into the ground), why would you decide not to take advantage of your initiative and the element of surprise on your side and engage the rest of the threat before the threat was ended?

i guess in a roundabout way that was the point i was trying to make (in response to the idea of firing a "warning shot" into one of the attackers). i wouldn't just engage one of the bad guys and wait to see what the others do, because i have a pretty good idea of how these thugs would react to deadly force. i definitely would take advantage of the element of surprise and prevent them from being able to react. i think if violent criminals understood that there are armed citizens that can and WILL stop them with deadly force in situations like this, then maybe they'd think twice about committing these types of crimes.

rmr1923 wrote:

Excaliber wrote:

rmr1923 wrote:

Zoomie wrote:Yeah, one of the bad guys would be a good backstop for the "warning shot", remember, every kick could be the victim's last.

in a situation like this, if i were to engage one bad guy and not immediately engage the others, i suspect they'd turn around with weapons of their own and open fire on me pretty quickly. the guys that got the beatdown in this video are lucky that the attackers either weren't armed or decided they didn't want to kill anyone that particular night.

While your take on the outcome of this course of action is quite likely correct (if they didn't find urgent business elsewhere as soon as the first attacker went down, even if they didn't shoot you, they'd still stomp you into the ground), why would you decide not to take advantage of your initiative and the element of surprise on your side and engage the rest of the threat before the threat was ended?

i guess in a roundabout way that was the point i was trying to make (in response to the idea of firing a "warning shot" into one of the attackers). i wouldn't just engage one of the bad guys and wait to see what the others do, because i have a pretty good idea of how these thugs would react to deadly force. i definitely would take advantage of the element of surprise and prevent them from being able to react. i think if violent criminals understood that there are armed citizens that can and WILL stop them with deadly force in situations like this, then maybe they'd think twice about committing these types of crimes.

They will almost always react in one of two ways - they'll either beat feet or counterattack with ferocity. Regardless of which choice they make, you won't be left wondering - it'll happen instantaneously.

Excaliber wrote:Relying on your lawyer to successfully make the case that the one situation you might be involved in is totally unique and unlike all the hundreds of unjustified knife attacks a given prosecutor has seen throughout his career would likely be a protracted and expensive endeavor fraught with peril for your continued freedom. I sincerely hope you never have the need to find out whether this would work out for you or not.

You raise a very good reason why a good person, acting in lawful self defense, might want to leave the scene of the attack and not call 911. The cops aren't going to be any help after the fact and they could be a big problem.

Bart wrote:

Excaliber wrote:Relying on your lawyer to successfully make the case that the one situation you might be involved in is totally unique and unlike all the hundreds of unjustified knife attacks a given prosecutor has seen throughout his career would likely be a protracted and expensive endeavor fraught with peril for your continued freedom. I sincerely hope you never have the need to find out whether this would work out for you or not.

You raise a very good reason why a good person, acting in lawful self defense, might want to leave the scene of the attack and not call 911. The cops aren't going to be any help after the fact and they could be a big problem.

I'm not sure of an action that I think could look worse for the actor then that.

Certain situations may cause the actor to leave the scene. Out of control mob comes immediately to mind. But to not call 911?

Bart wrote:

Excaliber wrote:Relying on your lawyer to successfully make the case that the one situation you might be involved in is totally unique and unlike all the hundreds of unjustified knife attacks a given prosecutor has seen throughout his career would likely be a protracted and expensive endeavor fraught with peril for your continued freedom. I sincerely hope you never have the need to find out whether this would work out for you or not.

You raise a very good reason why a good person, acting in lawful self defense, might want to leave the scene of the attack and not call 911. The cops aren't going to be any help after the fact and they could be a big problem.

I don't think you've thought this all the way through.

Here's a good reason for calling the police yourself: You'll want the police to be interviewing the good guy and putting their efforts into finding the bad guys, instead of interviewing the bad guys who now claim to be good guys and going after the good guy who is making himself scarce like a bad guy.

Once things start down that path, it's unlikely you'll stay out of the greybar hotel.

Excaliber wrote:I don't think you've thought this all the way through.

Here's a good reason for calling the police yourself: You'll want the police to be interviewing the good guy and putting their efforts into finding the bad guys, instead of interviewing the bad guys who now claim to be good guys and going after the good guy who is making himself scarce like a bad guy.

Please don't change the story. In your proposed scenario, I'm in trouble if I talk to the cops, even if I'm 100% justified.
"a protracted and expensive endeavor fraught with peril for your continued freedom"

Therefore, in an unjustice system like that, the best option for a good person may be to avoid the cops.

Ok so I have the dubious honor of living within 20 miles of where this atrocity occurred. As a Texan growing up in Virginia and a very new CCW (CHL in Texas) I am somewhat familiar with Virginia law.

#1 I would never EVER be in the place they were at the time they were. #2 I am a woman and so there is no question of whether or not they pose a grave threat to me and my kids (they do), so if I was surrounded in this manner in broad daylight with my three kids with me say in a park on a walk, I have three children with me and I can't run. So I have one option left to me, put my children behind me warn the perps to not take one more step forward with my weapon drawn. If they continue to advance on me, I do not have to be beaten in order to stop the threat, I will do what must be done to stop the threat, and then I will call the police and remove my children from the area as fast as possible.

mamabearCali wrote:Ok so I have the dubious honor of living within 20 miles of where this atrocity occurred. As a Texan growing up in Virginia and a very new CCW (CHL in Texas) I am somewhat familiar with Virginia law.

#1 I would never EVER be in the place they were at the time they were. #2 I am a woman and so there is no question of whether or not they pose a grave threat to me and my kids (they do), so if I was surrounded in this manner in broad daylight with my three kids with me say in a park on a walk, I have three children with me and I can't run. So I have one option left to me, put my children behind me warn the perps to not take one more step forward with my weapon drawn. If they continue to advance on me, I do not have to be beaten in order to stop the threat, I will do what must be done to stop the threat, and then I will call the police and remove my children from the area as fast as possible.

Nice first post. Welcome to the forum!

Bart wrote:

Excaliber wrote:Relying on your lawyer to successfully make the case that the one situation you might be involved in is totally unique and unlike all the hundreds of unjustified knife attacks a given prosecutor has seen throughout his career would likely be a protracted and expensive endeavor fraught with peril for your continued freedom. I sincerely hope you never have the need to find out whether this would work out for you or not.

You raise a very good reason why a good person, acting in lawful self defense, might want to leave the scene of the attack and not call 911. The cops aren't going to be any help after the fact and they could be a big problem.

It's an even better reason to use your lawfully carried firearm to defend yourself from a deadly attack and making the 911 call as the complainant, instead of playing ninja with a knife and then trying to disappear anonymously into thin air afterwards.

Disabling knife wounds cause profuse spurting bleeding that gets all over everyone and everything nearby. The police are highly skilled at tracking down the guy who tried to make himself scarce after leaving the scene covered in blood that came from the body on the ground.

When they catch up with you (and they will), you'll likely find they'll be pretty unreceptive to protestations of innocence and legitimate self defense after noting that your behavior after the incident is a much better match with that of a bad guy than a good guy.

Excaliber wrote:When they catch up with you (and they will), you'll likely find they'll be pretty unreceptive to protestations of innocence and legitimate self defense after noting that your behavior after the incident is a much better match with that of a bad guy than a good guy.

What's the closure rate for aggravated assault and homicide where the people don't know each other and the actor isn't there when the police arrive twenty minutes later? If you don't know the national rates, you can post the rates for your agency.