B.O.W.I.E. Club - EDCing of an Illegal Knife.

[The Annoyed Man]

vince.ryan@cao.hctx.net
Subject: Opinion Requested - Texas State Laws


The Honorable Vince Ryan
Harris County Attorney
10 19 Congress, 15th Floor
Houston, Texas 77002


Dear Mr. Ryan,

As a resident of Harris county and on behalf of several Concealed Handgun License holders I wish to inquire your opinion of the following TX CHL and weapon laws.

I have highlighted the law with the reference to the full law in the link below.

Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:
(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying;

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/d ... /PE.46.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In your opinion, is it lawful therefore to carry a illegal knife, or club when lawfully and legally carrying a concealed handgun under the concealed handgun license?


Thank you,

Well, if you hadn't gotten the legislature's attention before, this may well do so. That could be a good thing or a bad thing, depending. A good rule of thumb is to never ask a person in a position of authority for a clarification, because they just can't help the reflexive "no." And the reflexive "no" usually winds up having implications for people you don't know, and who did not ask you to clarify their situation for them. It's kind of like informing a store manager that his 30.06 sign is non-compliant. Nobody wins.

But since carrying big noifes isn't my style, I guess it's no skin off my nose. Might be skin off someone else's nose though. That's just my 2¢.

[matefrio]

vince.ryan@cao.hctx.net
Subject: Opinion Requested - Texas State Laws


The Honorable Vince Ryan
Harris County Attorney
10 19 Congress, 15th Floor
Houston, Texas 77002


Dear Mr. Ryan,

As a resident of Harris county and on behalf of several Concealed Handgun License holders I wish to inquire your opinion of the following TX CHL and weapon laws.

I have highlighted the law with the reference to the full law in the link below.

Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:
(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying;

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/d ... /PE.46.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In your opinion, is it lawful therefore to carry a illegal knife, or club when lawfully and legally carrying a concealed handgun under the concealed handgun license?


Thank you,

Well, if you hadn't gotten the legislature's attention before, this may well do so. That could be a good thing or a bad thing, depending. A good rule of thumb is to never ask a person in a position of authority for a clarification, because they just can't help the reflexive "no." And the reflexive "no" usually winds up having implications for people you don't know, and who did not ask you to clarify their situation for them. It's kind of like informing a store manager that his 30.06 sign is non-compliant. Nobody wins.

But since carrying big noifes isn't my style, I guess it's no skin off my nose. Might be skin off someone else's nose though. That's just my 2¢.

Seems like a catch 22. I can carry and ask or I can cower in fear while things stay in limbo.

[The Annoyed Man]

vince.ryan@cao.hctx.net
Subject: Opinion Requested - Texas State Laws


The Honorable Vince Ryan
Harris County Attorney
10 19 Congress, 15th Floor
Houston, Texas 77002


Dear Mr. Ryan,

As a resident of Harris county and on behalf of several Concealed Handgun License holders I wish to inquire your opinion of the following TX CHL and weapon laws.

I have highlighted the law with the reference to the full law in the link below.

Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:
(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying;

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/d ... /PE.46.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In your opinion, is it lawful therefore to carry a illegal knife, or club when lawfully and legally carrying a concealed handgun under the concealed handgun license?


Thank you,

Well, if you hadn't gotten the legislature's attention before, this may well do so. That could be a good thing or a bad thing, depending. A good rule of thumb is to never ask a person in a position of authority for a clarification, because they just can't help the reflexive "no." And the reflexive "no" usually winds up having implications for people you don't know, and who did not ask you to clarify their situation for them. It's kind of like informing a store manager that his 30.06 sign is non-compliant. Nobody wins.

But since carrying big noifes isn't my style, I guess it's no skin off my nose. Might be skin off someone else's nose though. That's just my 2¢.

Seems like a catch 22. I can carry and ask or I can cower in fear while things stay in limbo.

Nobody's "cowering." It's more a matter of "letting sleeping dogs lie." There is a third way.....carry anyway, don't notify the authorities, and see what happens. That is courageous. That way you are having the courage of your convictions without serving notice to some authoritarian somewhere that he/she needs to direct their attention to you, and by extension, all others who may want to carry a knife of similar type in a similar manner. The letter is kind of like asking for permission.

Am I playing a good devil's advocate?

[matefrio]

vince.ryan@cao.hctx.net
Subject: Opinion Requested - Texas State Laws


The Honorable Vince Ryan
Harris County Attorney
10 19 Congress, 15th Floor
Houston, Texas 77002


Dear Mr. Ryan,

As a resident of Harris county and on behalf of several Concealed Handgun License holders I wish to inquire your opinion of the following TX CHL and weapon laws.

I have highlighted the law with the reference to the full law in the link below.

Sec. 46.15. NONAPPLICABILITY. (a) Sections 46.02 and 46.03 do not apply to:
(b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(6) is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying;

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/d ... /PE.46.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In your opinion, is it lawful therefore to carry a illegal knife, or club when lawfully and legally carrying a concealed handgun under the concealed handgun license?


Thank you,

Well, if you hadn't gotten the legislature's attention before, this may well do so. That could be a good thing or a bad thing, depending. A good rule of thumb is to never ask a person in a position of authority for a clarification, because they just can't help the reflexive "no." And the reflexive "no" usually winds up having implications for people you don't know, and who did not ask you to clarify their situation for them. It's kind of like informing a store manager that his 30.06 sign is non-compliant. Nobody wins.

But since carrying big noifes isn't my style, I guess it's no skin off my nose. Might be skin off someone else's nose though. That's just my 2¢.

Seems like a catch 22. I can carry and ask or I can cower in fear while things stay in limbo.

Nobody's "cowering." It's more a matter of "letting sleeping dogs lie." There is a third way.....carry anyway, don't notify the authorities, and see what happens. That is courageous. That way you are having the courage of your convictions without serving notice to some authoritarian somewhere that he/she needs to direct their attention to you, and by extension, all others who may want to carry a knife of similar type in a similar manner. The letter is kind of like asking for permission.

Am I playing a good devil's advocate?

As far as playing devil's advocate? Step in line and take a number, you're not the first on this issue to done the costume. Now serving #200.

[3dfxMM]

I thought I posted this a while ago, but I can't find it anywhere.

You might have better luck sending a letter to the District Attorney. The County Attorney only handles civil matters.

[mreavis]

Update:

So out of curiosity I asked around a bit. My old CHL instructor, a random one I e-mailed and a legal aid for travis county in austin, texas *all* said CHL holders are completely exempt from section 46.02. Now if you ask me there is still a good chance you can get charged with illegal carry by practicing this. However, it appears most people experienced with law in this area clearly read it as an exemption to the full 46.02 section.

[denwego]

I've always thought myself that the 46.15 wording negates 46.02 entirely for a person with a CHL carrying a concealed handgun, much like the traveling exemption negates it entirely. The recent arguments with the specific exemptions for guards carrying clubs and the like make me that much more secure in carrying a large knife with my pistol and CHL if I needed to. I sometime carried a bowie knife in Colorado, since OCing one there is legal and there are a few places you can carry a knife but not a concealed handgun in that state. And considering I'm one of "those OC people", I love the fact that you're doing it.

In Texas, though, I can't see myself carrying a bowie or other large knife as an EDC due to the fact that it's tied to also having a concealed handgun. I have a 5" knife I carry specifically when I'm in places where I can't carry a firearm, such as a 51% bar when I'm not drinking, or at the polls on election day, or if I need to pop onto school property for some reason; I reckon that the knife is better than nothing, but I'd rather have my pistol as others have said. I'd carry a bigger knife if I could, but if I can only get away with that legally by also having my pistol, which I can't in those places, then no dice. In terms of carrying a bowie as an EDC at the same time as my pistol in non-prohibited locations, well, a knife that big and heavy... I'd personally carry another 17-round mag for my SR9c.

That said, I do always have a bowie knife in my car, since 46.02 doesn't apply in your car for knives as well as handguns, and there are plenty of times that a big knife comes in very handy as a tool (I used it this very afternoon, in fact).

[mreavis]

I'm almost only interested in the ability to carry an ASP (collapsible baton). Very intimidating, not near as lethal.

[Tamie]

Same as traveling, right?

[C-dub]

I agree with the OP and have for at least a couple of years now. I like Bowie knives and have one, but do not carry it around. I do have an asp, though, and sometimes also carry it and my Glock concealed.

I have not seen anyone carrying a large knife like this, but having been aware of this law for a while now I've always thought that if I did see someone carrying something like this I would assume they were also carrying a gun. So, in the long run I think carrying a knife like this would draw unnecessary attention to one's self and I wouldn't do it. But that's just me.

[cheezit]

suscribed to this.

[HotLeadSolutions]

I did ask CHL legal dept about this during our instructor's course. They said it was not in the sppirit of the statute, and that it only exempted you from penalties for a handgun.

I followed that conversation up with a talk with the Dallas DA's office, and the reply I got was "We would seek charges, and send to the grand jury"

So, you may beat the rap...I don't think you are going to beat the ride.

BUT...I carry a S&W for backup, so...

[Heartland Patriot]

The perceived vagaries of that quoted statute led me to NOT carry my "baby K-bar", even though it is less than 5.5 inches, due to the fact that it can be construed by LEOs as a "Bowie knife". I acquired a knife that does NOT fit into ANY of the descriptive categories in 46.02, despite having a fixed blade. I think the law should be a lot clearer; good old politics, combined with nervous nelly-types of citizens, puts that in the unlikely category. I'm not someone who considers myself skilled in the arts of knife fighting in any way; I see my knife as more of a tool and a last chance carry item. Good luck to the OP, but personally, I hope this never ends up with negative repercussions on CHLs in general. There are far too many opportunists out there who would jump at a chance to make a big stink about us to the media. You might say that is paranoid, but look at the current national administrator we ended up with...

[wharvey]

I'm almost only interested in the ability to carry an ASP (collapsible baton). Very intimidating, not near as lethal.

I use an asp mini baton for a key bob. It isn't the type with pepper spray but snapps open to a bit over a foot long. I've often wondered the legality of using it but no one has said anything, yet!

As to being able to carry illegal knives under you CHL, it is a very very gray area and discussed on many national level forums. The consensus seems to be that if you have a license that says handgun, that is what is covered. If the license says weapon then you are safe.

It would be much nicer if laws were written in plain simple English. But then the need for lawyers would drop. Lack of job security.

As an aside, every time I try to read a law or a contract I'm reminded of a short story Arthur Clark wrote in his "Tales from the White Hart". A scientist invented a machine that you could feed legalistic documents in one side and it would out put the document in plain talk. All the lawyers were upset, they'd be out of business. That is until a lawyer playing the the machine feed a legal document in the output side. The machine spit out a document that even the lawyers couldn't read. They were saved!

All the stories are short science fiction but all are very funny. Highly recommend.

[matefrio]

As to being able to carry illegal knives under you CHL, it is a very very gray area and discussed on many national level forums. The consensus seems to be that if you have a license that says handgun, that is what is covered. If the license says weapon then you are safe.

I must disagree along with most folks who read the law. This is not a GRAY area, it's rather black and white. What is grey is the bad information from uninformed folks who have seen nothing but hear say and wild speculation. Anyone who studies the matter or invests some time and it's clear what the law states.

What would help is if folks would carry their LEGAL, 5.5 in or below knives open so we can train the public not to panic. Cause rally folks, we're talking about 4in extra of knife and a guy who ALREADY carries a gun around every chance I get.

That 4 inches of steel would cause this kind of debate is kinda crazy once you think about it.