gradual erosion of freedom

[seamusTX]

While in school, many college students vilify and protest against the "big evil corporations". When they graduate, where do they send their resumes?

Since the young lady is attending the John Jay High School Science and Engineering Academy, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that she wants to go into science or engineering.

Usually this means working for a big company, hospital, or government agency.

Many engineers go into start-ups where standards are more casual. However, these start-ups either become big companies are are bought by big companies.

Setting aside the knee-jerk ranting and looking at the situation in high schools these days, there is a lot of gang activity and some violence (highly exaggerated, but I digress). People who simply have no business in the school enter to commit assaults, theft, or drug deals. A school that fails to meet a reasonable standard of caution is going to be nailed to the wall if something bad happens, so what do they do?

- Jim

[The Annoyed Man]

Am I being naive in thinking that yes, their approach is less than perfect, often far less, but those in power are trying to keep us safe...? Or are you thinking you can do better?

How about this: Would be it better to prevent air terrorism if there was no effort what so ever to keep air flight citizens safe...? Just get on board and hope for the best?

Like that better...?

The Israeli security model gets discussed a lot on threads like these, and it is certainly arguable that they face risks of air-terrorism at least as high as our own.......and yet they don't seem to feel the need to strip search 6 year old girls or roust out grannies in wheel chairs. The problem isn't that terrorism hasn't been prevented, it's that in the effort to do so, far more of it has been very heavy-handed theater and nothing more. And since it is just theater, one has to question it's intent. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that the intent is to intimidate. Intimidate whom? It isn't intimidating terrorists, is it? Who then? Everybody else, that's whom, and that is just more government crapulence.

We're so afraid to profile that we harras everybody else. That's just dumb. And before anybody gets their undies in a wad, the Israeli profiling methodology is far more sophisticated than "oh, he's got dark skin, a towel on his head, and a bindi on his forehead....do a body cavity search on him." Not at all. Their profiling methods are much more subtle and in-depth than that, and are based more on observable psychometrics rather than skin color or manner of dress. AND.........they are very, VERY successful, all while being far more respectful of the traveling public. WHY aren't we using their methods? Do we not deserve better for our tax money?

[seamusTX]

Who is going to change it? Nobody.

The remote ancestors of the TSA started when Nixon was president in the 1970s. Airline security has ratcheted down under every administration and congress every time some new threat emerges—along with warrantless wiretaps, e-mail probes, GPS phone tracing, etc.

I shudder to think what will happen after a suicide bomber with a surgically implanted bomb gets onto an airliner.

This is just like the "war on drugs." It is a rationalization for rights violations. It has given rise to greedy public agencies and government contractors that make a lot of money from it. It doesn't work, but nobody will admit the self-styled emperor is more naked than a monkey.

- Jim

[philip964]

Well even Drudge had a section today titled "Land of the Free?"

http://www.infowars.com/california-man- ... ding-cops/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here was an interesting one: Man video taped police arresting some one and was jailed for 4 days. They have decided to drop the failure to provide identification as there is no law requiring you to provide identification and they have dropped the failure to have a reflector on is bicycle.

[hpcatx]

And since it is just theater, one has to question it's intent. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that the intent is to intimidate. Intimidate whom? It isn't intimidating terrorists, is it? Who then? Everybody else, that's whom, and that is just more government crapulence.

Well said, TAM!

[philip964]

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/techn ... -1C7227561" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

10 year old girls laptop decorated with Winnie the Pooh stickers confiscated by the police at her home.

Apparently police in Finland do not have much to do.

[VMI77]

I flew to the UK [on business] a few months ago. ... I didn't notice any higher security than on domestic flights.

It hardly could be worse than whole-body X rays, could it?

One difference with the U.K. is that they can arrest you without probable cause if they feel like it. That rarely happens to ordinary travelers from western countries.

I wanted to add as a P.S. to my earlier response that freedom is not one-dimensional. Until 1971, men age 18 to 20 couldn't vote, but they could be drafted into a meat-grinder of a war (i.e. Vietnam). Women couldn't enlist in the regular military if they wanted to.

The list of that kind of legal change goes on and on, not to even touch on the social changes.

- Jim

Yeah, but what they should have done is either raise the draft age to 21, or allow those who were 18 and drafted in the military to vote --instead of letting every 18 year old express their immaturity at election time.

[VMI77]

Am I being naive in thinking that yes, their approach is less than perfect, often far less, but those in power are trying to keep us safe...? Or are you thinking you can do better?

How about this: Would be it better to prevent air terrorism if there was no effort what so ever to keep air flight citizens safe...? Just get on board and hope for the best?

Like that better...?

The Israeli security model gets discussed a lot on threads like these, and it is certainly arguable that they face risks of air-terrorism at least as high as our own.......and yet they don't seem to feel the need to strip search 6 year old girls or roust out grannies in wheel chairs. The problem isn't that terrorism hasn't been prevented, it's that in the effort to do so, far more of it has been very heavy-handed theater and nothing more. And since it is just theater, one has to question it's intent. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that the intent is to intimidate. Intimidate whom? It isn't intimidating terrorists, is it? Who then? Everybody else, that's whom, and that is just more government crapulence.

We're so afraid to profile that we harras everybody else. That's just dumb. And before anybody gets their undies in a wad, the Israeli profiling methodology is far more sophisticated than "oh, he's got dark skin, a towel on his head, and a bindi on his forehead....do a body cavity search on him." Not at all. Their profiling methods are much more subtle and in-depth than that, and are based more on observable psychometrics rather than skin color or manner of dress. AND.........they are very, VERY successful, all while being far more respectful of the traveling public. WHY aren't we using their methods? Do we not deserve better for our tax money?

One difference is that the Israelis are focused on actually stopping people from blowing things up, whereas in the US the focus is on looking like we're stopping people from blowing things up. I think this is basically true across the board. For instance, in the electric utility industry, all effort is in giving the appearance of having a program to improve reliability --actual reliability isn't even a factor in determining how a company is penalized.

[VMI77]

I was struck by the recognition the last time I visited Ireland how terrific their toilets are.

I seriously hope this discussion is not going to hinge on how toilets flush in Ireland.

Handguns and semiautomatic weapons are totally banned in Ireland.

Their labor laws are a socialist workers' paradise:
http://www.ilo.org/ifpdial/information- ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

All the European countries have high regulatory burdens and taxes on business. Most have a VAT in the range of 15 to 25%. This is a sales tax on consumers in addition to income tax, their equivalent of social security, and property taxes. Oh, and motor fuel taxes in the range of $2 to $5 per U.S. gallon.

In other countries it's even worse. Anyone trying to run a business in most of the rest of the world has to bribe corrupt officials and fend off organized crime (which is also bribing the same officials).

Try getting a concealed carry license or even a license to own a firearm in any other country (where you are a legal resident). It's either impossible or requires major legal fees or payoffs.

- Jim

Does Ireland have more restrictive laws than Britain? My understanding is that the UK allows semi-autos of just about any magazine capacity in .22 rimfire.

[VMI77]

We have lost no freedom's. If anything we have more today than 60 years ago. There may be some impediments to reach them (think airport, court, school security, all in place to help keep us safe) but they are still there. Any one expecting personal privacy in the public or cyber domain in this day and age is living in a fantasy world. We live in the freest society in the world, bar none. If you don't believe that, I recommend going to live in another nation for a while to appreciate what we have.

You're the one living in a fantasy world. Can you smoke where you want to if you want to? Can you drive without a seatbelt if you want to? Can you buy an incandescent light bulb if you want to? A toilet that isn't a water saver? A refrigerator that isn't energy star rated? Can you start a cab company if you want to without paying the city a fortune? Can you carry a weapon for your own protection wherever you go no matter what state you are in? Can you drive a vehicle without a license? Can you own gold that hasn't been government approved? Can you hire someone to care for your elderly parent who isn't forced to be licensed by the state? Can you bury your dead on your own property?

Do I need to go on? We are less free than our forefathers were by a great distance, and we get less freer each day. Soon the government will tell you what doctor you can see, whether or not you're allowed to have the operation you need, whether or not you can take the drugs you need to stay alive, etc., etc., etc.

The fact that people still think America is a free country is proof that we don't know our history, don't really understand what freedom is and have betrayed our birthright to our own detriment. The government controls many aspects of your life and soon will control even more. And for what? A sense of safety? This is the same foolhardiness that convinces people they don't need to carry a weapon because the police will take care of the problem. This despite the reality of thousands and thousands of dead testaments to the government's inability to do anything but punish the perpetrators afterwards.

Less free than our forefathers by a great distance, yes, but ha ha ha.....we're less free than I was when I went to high school. My wife had to show ID to buy cold medicine yesterday. A while back in another state an elderly mother was arrested because she bought a package of cold medicine for her husband and a package for her daughter. We used to be able to order guns through the mail. We had guns in our cars in the school parking lot when I was in high school. I walked around my residential neighborhood with rifles and shotguns openly displayed when I was 15 --by myself. I never even considered the possibility back then that my AR15 rifle would be made illegal. My friends and I made black powder in the high school chemistry lab....even caused the classroom to be evacuated when we burned it and filled the room with smoke....we weren't arrested, suspended, or punished in any way. We carried pocket knives and no one got kicked out of school for taking aspirin when they had a headache. Back then, if a LEO stopped me, a 16 year old driver, with an assortment of rifles and shotguns on my backseat, he didn't go apoplectic and treat me like a criminal or a terrorist....he good naturedly inquired about M-1 Carbine.

And we don't have to go back much further for a scene that would be absolutely impossible today. Back in the 60s when the UT sniper was shooting people, citizens in Austin pulled guns from their cars and fired back at the sniper in the tower.

[Dave2]

For instance, in the electric utility industry, all effort is in giving the appearance of having a program to improve reliability --actual reliability isn't even a factor in determining how a company is penalized.

Wait, what? They let the power go out on purpose so that the news can report that they fixed the problem?

[seamusTX]

Does Ireland have more restrictive laws than Britain? My understanding is that the UK allows semi-autos of just about any magazine capacity in .22 rimfire.

I dunno. I'm not planning to live in either place in the foreseeable future.

In Texas you can walk into a gun store and walk out with something that would land you in prison in most countries. This includes semi-auto centerfire handguns, rifles, and shotguns in most cases. Then there are "safe storage" laws and restrictions on the quantity of ammunition that someone can possess.

The point I was trying to make is that there is a world of difference between some regulation like having to get your car inspected once a year versus being thrown in prison for criticizing the the generalissimo-for-life. Probably I am trying to make water flow uphill.

- Jim

[VMI77]

For instance, in the electric utility industry, all effort is in giving the appearance of having a program to improve reliability --actual reliability isn't even a factor in determining how a company is penalized.

Wait, what? They let the power go out on purpose so that the news can report that they fixed the problem?

No, it's more complicated than that. There is a huge "compliance" bureaucracy that includes audits and penalties. The purpose is supposed to be "reliability." However, the way it works, a company that is 80% reliable and has all the required paperwork in order will pass an audit, and a company that is 99% reliable but hasn't documented it in the proper way will fail and be fined (numbers are exaggerated to to make the point). And the kicker is, the compliance activities and required documentation are open to interpretation by each company, and not defined by the compliance bureaucracy (basically, NERC via FERC)....there are no auditing rules or examples from the compliance entity for a company to use to ensure they have performed the correct action or provided the proper documentation. So, for instance, my company could give an auditor evidence of what we thought constituted compliance for a given compliance measure, and he might say not good enough, but he won't tell you what evidence would demonstrate compliance. You just have to keep guessing until the auditor says ok, pass, or sorry, fail. And btw, my small company is responsible for obeying and documenting about 1600 separate compliance requirements.

[VMI77]

Does Ireland have more restrictive laws than Britain? My understanding is that the UK allows semi-autos of just about any magazine capacity in .22 rimfire.

I dunno. I'm not planning to live in either place in the foreseeable future.

In Texas you can walk into a gun store and walk out with something that would land you in prison in most countries. This includes semi-auto centerfire handguns, rifles, and shotguns in most cases. Then there are "safe storage" laws and restrictions on the quantity of ammunition that someone can possess.

The point I was trying to make is that there is a world of difference between some regulation like having to get your car inspected once a year versus being thrown in prison for criticizing the the generalissimo-for-life. Probably I am trying to make water flow uphill.

- Jim

I get it, I was just curious if you knew more about the law there, as what I've heard from Brits on various sites gives me an incomplete picture. OTOH, you can buy silencers in the UK with no hassle. Though, like you, I have no interest in living in the UK.

[seamusTX]

I was just curious if you knew more about the law there, as what I've heard from Brits on various sites gives me an incomplete picture. OTOH, you can buy silencers in the UK with no hassle.

I actually tried to look up Ireland's firearms laws before answering your question. They are quite the crazy-quilt. Generally they copy the U.K., but sometimes they "liberalize" some aspect and sometimes they clamp down harder. They have grandfathered some possession that is otherwise illegal now.

This is another point relevant to the present discussion. Many countries have obscure laws that are subject to interpretation by unelected magistrates, which boil down to the government being able to throw anyone in jail for an offense that no one can explain in plain language.

The U.S. is nuts about silencers. In most European countries they are legal and sometimes required for hunting. That is after the owner goes through extensive background checks for buying a firearm in the first place, as I mentioned upthread.

OTOH, in those countries possessing ammunition or any part of a firearm without a license is a serious offense. Some treat airguns, BB guns, and bows and arrows like firearms.

- Jim