STOP! Let me see your bag!

[gemini]

With only 4 posts...and you've certainly got the forum stirred up. Interesting views all the way around.
Some agree with your actions, some don't. If you have the funds, the time, the drive and the right
attorney, sue. All I ask is that you keep us updated on the outcome. Thanks in advance.

[EEllis]

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Sadly based on the rules I have read he is allowed to detain me only if he has the reasonable belief I have stolen something. That is the shopkeepers rule (quoted below in some case laws). He can detain me for a reasonable time (typically proven to be about 15 minutes) to investigate things and deliver me to law enforcement in a reasonable time. That is how they shield themselves from unlawful detainment and false arrest. In those you have to prove that they didn't have the legal authority to detain. Shopkeeper privilege allows them that shielding provided they meet a "Reasonable Belief". Which is what becomes a question and I feel courts have proved the mere reports someone did something doesn't meet that test (see below).

Honestly I think you're assuming things. While you were told by a third party what they think happened the truth is you bailed without having any idea what happened except you know that an invintory alarm went off. Your behavior and the extreme lengths you took to leave could very well be more than enough for the actions to be reasonable. They would be if it were a cop who told you to stop for instance. No you don't have to stop but people may be allowed to take those actions into consideration. That doesn't even take any other actions in to consideration. That isn't Shielding. They are "shielded" from action if they act within the law.

I did some research and from what I found I don't think there is some big obvious line. If the store has an ounce of sense that SO won't be talking to anyone but their lawyers and when they get done it won't be just the inventory control that contributed to the belief that something was up. There was a case in Texas where someone who did not steal anything and was detained and his detention was held to be reasonable and part of that was the refusal to stop when an inventory control system went off.

I too am curious on the case law supporting the devices are not reasonable belief. I believe even the opinions of courts in our federal circuit would apply.

Not for certain. For one thing there isn't a fed shopkeepers privilege law so ..... and as a state law it would have to be a decision based on state law. If there is nothing on point in Texas you could use another example to show why you think a court should rule a certain way be I don't believe there is anything that requires a court to follow anything but Texas appellate rulings.

To clarify my dropping him was more of a I am going to get physical and will put you on the ground until PD gets here. He at the point of hearing that didn't know I had a weapon. I would love to clarify my stance as I think some are missing (maybe the links to the cases would be helpful). To which I think is important to have that basic sighting of what the courts held as reasonable at that time. I was going to wait for PD to come but wanted away from this man. I was going to do so in my personal car with the doors closed and windows rolled up for AC/Heat while waiting on them. I wouldn't have left until they came. Since I couldn't close my door I took off to get away from him and sit in another part of the parking lot.

Dude you threatened violence on a guy who just wanted you to wait for the cops. If he let you close your door he would of been throwing away any ability to keep you there. You still used your car to try and force him to let you leave. I think the problem is you don't get what others are saying not that we don't get why you did what you did.

I agree with everyone here that I could have handled it better by showing the guy in my bag. I agree with that. Keith to answer your question: I would want my store to be protected from shoplifters and those that commit fraud (online business is what I have). From that aspect I have a business mind to know it is going to happen even if I take all precautions out there it is bound to happen. Opening a store to the public comes with that challenge but I also believe that while I would enforce a level of anti-theft measures (LPO and Anti-Theft) my goal would be more towards finding the true cases and not the simple the alarm went off STOP mode enabled. We aren't talking about the metal detector at the airport where lives can be lost if the wrong thing gets through. Because to me security is like an onion and just as I have firewalls, Intrusion detection systems, etc in place I know that those can and do fail and having multiple levels in places assists in making the ability to catch or stop that attacker (or shoplifter) easier and more useful. In other words just because I can use a screw driver to act as a hammer doesn't mean I don't have a hammer in my toolbox.

Again that is MY opinion on the matter which is no different than the opinion on another store owner who doesn't have time or money to invest to such a system or have that level of reliability. However if you don't take the proper steps to protect yourself and something happens you become responsible for proving it wasn't your fault. For those interested the links provide some good case law out there I think and may show you my thoughts. In Texas remember you can't prove that someone committed theft just because they put something in their pocket you still have to prove they had an intent to deprive you of it because they passed all points of payment. IE: Just because I put a video in my pocket from the back of walmart's electronics and walk away from that register doesn't mean I commit theft until I pass the cash registers at the front of the store.

Again you ran so you have just about zero idea why you were asked to stop. Getting on a soap box about anything is a wast of time because you don't have the info. Your decision wasn't based on any of the things you are going on about you just decided that you didn't steal so you wouldn't stop. Fine but that doesn't make the SO's actions illegal of lessen the consequences for your own. Luckily no one was hurt and you didn't have something in you pocket by mistake, you can't play the oops card when you flee the scene, but you would of had some serious consequences if you did. Also That would be the last time I personally would go anywhere with you if you were acting like that. I would apologize to your girl not keep going on about why you were justified. Maybe you have her snowed but I would never buy it.

[C-dub]

So many things wrong with this event.

That little alarm has gone off on me many times. Sometimes without anyone being there to ask about it. Once, it even went off when I was entering a Walmart. It was during the Christmas shopping season and the woman at the door saw me enter and said not to worry because they had turned up the sensitivity on the thing. It didn't go off when I left after purchasing my items. In another Walmart that same day, their alarm didn't go off, while I was still in the same clothes.

If there is someone at the door and they ask me to stop, the biggest reason I do is because they do not need that kind of stress much more than the extra 20 seconds it takes to resolve the issue. Most of these folks are much more mature than I am and they don't need that kind of stress in their life.

Then, on the flip side of this coin, we all know that the little cursory check of the receipt and peek in the bag does absolutely nothing. If a person wanted to steal something, all they would have to do is buy something obvious, like a DVD or Bluray after having pocketed whatever it was they were going to steal. Every time I can think of that alarm has gone off on me it was because the checker failed to deactivate the device on a movie and the door person looked at the receipt and saw the movie in the bag and assumed that must be the reason the alarm went off. They have never tried to deactivate the thing and have me pass through again to see if that was it. This is even bigger theater than the TSA.

[LSUTiger]

Personally, in that situation ,I am not stopping for anyone who isn't clearly a uniformed police officer or otherwise produces proper police ID. I would take his attempt to cuff and detain me as an assault and respond accordingly. He sure as hell would have not had the opportunity to mace me and my wife. Most assuredly he would be the one in need of medical attention if he did not cease and desist.

I would have definitely called police to report the assault but defended myself.

To those who want to submit to the whims of non-police or those projecting the slightest appearance of authority based your misperceptions and not fact go right ahead. How would you like to hear that your wife was stripped searched by some perv just because he claimed he thought he saw something suspicious and better yet was mistaken for having any authority to do so. As for as the shop keep law, I think it would be easy to argue that you either never saw the guy and took him for a criminal or that you thought he was just another shopper who turned out to be looking for a crime of opportunity, which both could have very well been the case.

Add a an attempt to be shoved into a white van and kidnapped and it sounds like the intro to an episode of Criminal Minds. That's why I carry a gun in the first place is so I don't become a victim of stuff like that.

I have been approached by questionable people in the parking lot a few times and on a couple of occasions when they noticed that they got my attention they changed direction. Makes me wonder what they were up to. But I didn't go assault them to find out.

[C-dub]

Personally, in that situation ,I am not stopping for anyone who isn't clearly a uniformed police officer or otherwise produces proper police ID. I would take his attempt to cuff and detain me as an assault and respond accordingly. He sure as heck would have not had the opportunity to mace me and my wife. Most assuredly he would be the one in need of medical attention if he did not cease and desist.

I would have definitely called police to report the assault but defended myself.

The OP did call the police to report the assault and was told the LPO was within their rights, so far. If that turns out to be the case and you "defended" yourself under these circumstances, you might be the one facing charges. This wouldn't have been a random stranger approaching you in the parking lot type situation. Once they addressed you asking you about your bag and once you were aware that the alarm had been triggered, you would know exactly who they were and what they were doing.

[ajwakeboarder]

Just an FYI, if the alarm went off because the cashier forgot to remove the anti-theft device (It happens a lot), It is difficult to remove yourself. You can damage the bag trying. If nothing else, they could remove the device if that was the case.

[LSUTiger]

Personally, in that situation ,I am not stopping for anyone who isn't clearly a uniformed police officer or otherwise produces proper police ID. I would take his attempt to cuff and detain me as an assault and respond accordingly. He sure as heck would have not had the opportunity to mace me and my wife. Most assuredly he would be the one in need of medical attention if he did not cease and desist.

I would have definitely called police to report the assault but defended myself.

The OP did call the police to report the assault and was told the LPO was within their rights, so far. If that turns out to be the case and you "defended" yourself under these circumstances, you might be the one facing charges. This wouldn't have been a random stranger approaching you in the parking lot type situation. Once they addressed you asking you about your bag and once you were aware that the alarm had been triggered, you would know exactly who they were and what they were doing.

Do as you please. Some dude tries to cuff, detain and mace me and he's not the police, add the fact that a family member is also assaulted, he's asking for trouble. PERIOD.

In all likelihood the 911 call would have been after a weapon was produced in accordance with pc9.04 and we were out of there.

[puma guy]

I have certainly enjoyed reading the post and the back and forth arguments. Missing is any concern that "shop keepers rights" have been expanded in many states to the point the LP personnel have the same privilege for arrest given to police and that bothers me plenty. They are not trained LEO's. I think using mace or pepper spray on these people was way beyond what is legal in even the expanded realm of alternatives merchant's have been given. Perhaps the OP should seek an interested attorney or maybe not.

[Right2Carry]

Reading some of these posts makes me SMH. Some individuals need to re familiarize themselves with CHL-16 and conflict resolution along with de-escalation.

[baldeagle]

All I can say is that there are some CHL holders that I do not ever want to be around.

[EEllis]

All I can say is that there are some CHL holders that I do not ever want to be around.

I agree. The idea of some people with firearms is just plain scary.

[EEllis]

Do as you please. Some dude tries to cuff, detain and mace me and he's not the police, add the fact that a family member is also assaulted, he's asking for trouble. PERIOD.

In all likelihood the 911 call would have been after a weapon was produced in accordance with pc9.04 and we were out of there.

And you can tell everyone in the penitentiary about how you stood up for your rights.

[C-dub]

Personally, in that situation ,I am not stopping for anyone who isn't clearly a uniformed police officer or otherwise produces proper police ID. I would take his attempt to cuff and detain me as an assault and respond accordingly. He sure as heck would have not had the opportunity to mace me and my wife. Most assuredly he would be the one in need of medical attention if he did not cease and desist.

I would have definitely called police to report the assault but defended myself.

The OP did call the police to report the assault and was told the LPO was within their rights, so far. If that turns out to be the case and you "defended" yourself under these circumstances, you might be the one facing charges. This wouldn't have been a random stranger approaching you in the parking lot type situation. Once they addressed you asking you about your bag and once you were aware that the alarm had been triggered, you would know exactly who they were and what they were doing.

Do as you please. Some dude tries to cuff, detain and mace me and he's not the police, add the fact that a family member is also assaulted, he's asking for trouble. PERIOD.

In all likelihood the 911 call would have been after a weapon was produced in accordance with pc9.04 and we were out of there.

Okay, but you are aware that this wasn't just some dude, right? The OP knew exactly who it was and I doubt that you or any one of us wouldn't also have known.

[AlphaBeta]

A few things: I didn't know I set off the alarm system as it was delayed to the point I was out the door and didn't hear anything but my wife calling my name. Nor did I know who was saying to stop let me look in your bag until I turned around and told the SO to leave me alone. What I do know was this guy watched me walk from the registers to the door and out the door. The reason I know that is because I saw him near the door. We aren't talking best I can tell as it was my first and last time in that store that the sensor is either too close to the door or that delayed or someone else set it off. Normally I hear them go off from time to time.

The tag is one of those cheesy ones that they put on the CD covers little white strip. Not like the cable lock ones or the ones they put on clothes. PD didn't judge he was or was not within his rights to detain only that they thought he may have and sent it to homicide to investigate. The officer said my not stopping may have given a reasonable doubt.

EElis did you read my posts showing of the reasonable belief. Those cases were both Texas Appeals cases and both supported it takes a little more to prove that in my opinion. If he didn't have the reasonable belief to pursue me outside to begin with then my actions of continuing on to my car can't give rise to prove a suspicion he never had. I am assuming not a lot when the guy told me to let him see in my bag. That was not a third party that was me hearing it. No assumption there. I do assume that the alarm went off based on third party telling me it did, not because I heard it. Furthermore I theartend violence in response to it being threatened to me. Also the cases I could find for the security devices going off had where employees watched them steal stuff and found stolen items after passing all points of payment.

And with that I will drop it at that. I have apologized to my wife and after getting the police report I will drop it. I take the comments here to heart and believe those that have pointed out they would be embarrased with me makes me reconsider my position and also makes me feel equal to how I see OCT act. For that I apologize to this community. We do not need CHLers that put the responsible ones in a negative light as they get enough from the unlicensed ones just fine. With that my most deeply heartfelt apologies.

[jmra]

We all make mistakes. The mistakes we learn from make us better. Welcome to the forum.