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Re: No, You Can't Slap Cuffs on Peaceful Gun Owners

Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 6:09 pm
by The Annoyed Man
mr1337 wrote:It seems that proponents of the 2nd Amendment aren't necessarily proponents of the 4th. :banghead:
Now that simply isn't true, and that is an unfair accusation. You've seen several of us, myself included, agree that the man has rights, and that the police over reacted. I don't know how much more clearly I can state myself than that. But you are treating this as if it was a 2-dimensional event, and it most assuredly was not.

The world is not always black and white, my friend. The most common truth in almost any altercation between police and a citizen is that BOTH had some part in it........maybe to a greater or lesser degree for one than the other, but BOTH had a part, and there was blame to go around. That's actually how the real world works. One can revere the Constitution in virtually all of its particulars (I do), but not in every jot and tittle (the 17th Amendment is a travesty of federal power-grabbing and has led to the ruination of this country), without being disrespectful of the Bill of Rights. Further, I would lay down my life for its preservation, even as it stands with its warts and all (17th Amendment). I'm just capable of seeing a bigger picture which includes 3rd and 4th dimensions. Notice that I have not challenged your love of the Constitution. It's an unnecessary accusation, and trust me in this: if you cannot get beyond seeing the world in only black and white, then you are going to spend a life angry at the rest of the world.

Re: No, You Can't Slap Cuffs on Peaceful Gun Owners

Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 6:12 pm
by mr1337
ScooterSissy wrote:
mr1337 wrote:It seems that proponents of the 2nd Amendment aren't necessarily proponents of the 4th. :banghead:
Really? Who on here did you see say anything even close to advocacy that the police should have been able to violate anyone's 4th amendment. What I (and others) have said is that the police acted poorly.

We frankly don't know whether or not the seizure was unreasonable, since we don't know what information the police received. The gun was returned, and the man was sent on his way.
Hope someone goes to jail for making a false report, then.

In all likelihood, someone called 911 saying there was a man on the street with a rifle, or a cop passed by, saw it, and turned around.

There are plenty of other examples of police illegally detaining open carriers without reasonable suspicion. This one was just the latest one I've seen.

Re: No, You Can't Slap Cuffs on Peaceful Gun Owners

Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 8:32 pm
by nightmare69
mr1337 wrote:
ScooterSissy wrote:
mr1337 wrote:Pretty mad after watching this video [abbreviated profanity deleted] a guy in Oregon legally open carrying a rifle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhSH928N9b8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He was ultimately released and the weapon was returned to him, but I'm sure it was a very stressful situation to be drawn down on by multiple officers while they detain and disarm you.
Sorry, as much as I'm a proponent of gun rights, I think the notion of "I'm going to strap on a mean looking weapon, get my 7 months pregnant wife to follow me recording, and walk down a busy road trolling to get stopped" is not the height of good sound judgement.
It's only unsound judgement because of this kind of illegal police behavior. I didn't see anything unlawful in the video. The guy shouldn't have been detained, much less drawn down on. Being that he did not break any laws, the reason why the situation was potentially dangerous was because of the police, not because of anything that he was doing.
He was baiting the police and got exactly what he set out to do, police contact. These types of people do nothing but make lawful gun owners look bad and hurt the 2A moment.

Re: No, You Can't Slap Cuffs on Peaceful Gun Owners

Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 8:44 pm
by mr1337
nightmare69 wrote:
mr1337 wrote:
ScooterSissy wrote:
mr1337 wrote:Pretty mad after watching this video [abbreviated profanity deleted] a guy in Oregon legally open carrying a rifle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhSH928N9b8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He was ultimately released and the weapon was returned to him, but I'm sure it was a very stressful situation to be drawn down on by multiple officers while they detain and disarm you.
Sorry, as much as I'm a proponent of gun rights, I think the notion of "I'm going to strap on a mean looking weapon, get my 7 months pregnant wife to follow me recording, and walk down a busy road trolling to get stopped" is not the height of good sound judgement.
It's only unsound judgement because of this kind of illegal police behavior. I didn't see anything unlawful in the video. The guy shouldn't have been detained, much less drawn down on. Being that he did not break any laws, the reason why the situation was potentially dangerous was because of the police, not because of anything that he was doing.
He was baiting the police and got exactly what he set out to do, police contact. These types of people do nothing but make lawful gun owners look bad and hurt the 2A moment.
Police contact SHOULD have been a consensual conversation, not a detainment at gunpoint. From all I can see from the video, he is also a lawful gun owner.

Re: No, You Can't Slap Cuffs on Peaceful Gun Owners

Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 11:01 pm
by nightmare69
mr1337 wrote:
nightmare69 wrote:
mr1337 wrote:
ScooterSissy wrote:
mr1337 wrote:Pretty mad after watching this video [abbreviated profanity deleted] a guy in Oregon legally open carrying a rifle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhSH928N9b8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He was ultimately released and the weapon was returned to him, but I'm sure it was a very stressful situation to be drawn down on by multiple officers while they detain and disarm you.
Sorry, as much as I'm a proponent of gun rights, I think the notion of "I'm going to strap on a mean looking weapon, get my 7 months pregnant wife to follow me recording, and walk down a busy road trolling to get stopped" is not the height of good sound judgement.
It's only unsound judgement because of this kind of illegal police behavior. I didn't see anything unlawful in the video. The guy shouldn't have been detained, much less drawn down on. Being that he did not break any laws, the reason why the situation was potentially dangerous was because of the police, not because of anything that he was doing.
He was baiting the police and got exactly what he set out to do, police contact. These types of people do nothing but make lawful gun owners look bad and hurt the 2A moment.
Police contact SHOULD have been a consensual conversation, not a detainment at gunpoint. From all I can see from the video, he is also a lawful gun owner.
Officer discretion. If he feels violated then he can file a complaint, if he wants to really stick it to them he can hire a lawyer and sue. I doubt he will do either because all he wanted was views on YouTube.

Re: No, You Can't Slap Cuffs on Peaceful Gun Owners

Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 11:52 pm
by srothstein
The Annoyed Man wrote:The world is not always black and white, my friend. The most common truth in almost any altercation between police and a citizen is that BOTH had some part in it........maybe to a greater or lesser degree for one than the other, but BOTH had a part, and there was blame to go around.
I do not think I have seen this stated more accurately. I agree, 100%.

Re: No, You Can't Slap Cuffs on Peaceful Gun Owners

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 12:03 am
by Aggie_engr
ScooterSissy wrote:
mr1337 wrote:Pretty mad after watching this video [abbreviated profanity deleted] a guy in Oregon legally open carrying a rifle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhSH928N9b8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He was ultimately released and the weapon was returned to him, but I'm sure it was a very stressful situation to be drawn down on by multiple officers while they detain and disarm you.
Sorry, as much as I'm a proponent of gun rights, I think the notion of "I'm going to strap on a mean looking weapon, get my 7 months pregnant wife to follow me recording, and walk down a busy road trolling to get stopped" is not the height of good sound judgement.
^^^LOL. This guy. "rlol"

Re: No, You Can't Slap Cuffs on Peaceful Gun Owners

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 4:21 am
by rbwhatever1
Papers Comrade. It sure took an awful lot of LEO's to figure out this Law Abiding Citizen had not broken any Laws and give him his rifle back....

Re: No, You Can't Slap Cuffs on Peaceful Gun Owners

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 7:11 am
by C-dub
nightmare69 wrote:
mr1337 wrote:
nightmare69 wrote:
mr1337 wrote:
ScooterSissy wrote:
mr1337 wrote:Pretty mad after watching this video [abbreviated profanity deleted] a guy in Oregon legally open carrying a rifle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhSH928N9b8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He was ultimately released and the weapon was returned to him, but I'm sure it was a very stressful situation to be drawn down on by multiple officers while they detain and disarm you.
Sorry, as much as I'm a proponent of gun rights, I think the notion of "I'm going to strap on a mean looking weapon, get my 7 months pregnant wife to follow me recording, and walk down a busy road trolling to get stopped" is not the height of good sound judgement.
It's only unsound judgement because of this kind of illegal police behavior. I didn't see anything unlawful in the video. The guy shouldn't have been detained, much less drawn down on. Being that he did not break any laws, the reason why the situation was potentially dangerous was because of the police, not because of anything that he was doing.
He was baiting the police and got exactly what he set out to do, police contact. These types of people do nothing but make lawful gun owners look bad and hurt the 2A moment.
Police contact SHOULD have been a consensual conversation, not a detainment at gunpoint. From all I can see from the video, he is also a lawful gun owner.
Officer discretion. If he feels violated then he can file a complaint, if he wants to really stick it to them he can hire a lawyer and sue. I doubt he will do either because all he wanted was views on YouTube.
He did. That's what this entire thread is about. And he won! I don't know exactly what he won, but he won.
Northrup sued Bright and other members of the Toledo Police Department in federal court, alleging violations of his rights under the First, Second, and Fourth Amendments as well as state law.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/evan-bern ... 84562.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: No, You Can't Slap Cuffs on Peaceful Gun Owners

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 12:30 pm
by Abraham
Am I the only one disturbed by folks strolling/trolling with AR 15's at the ready given the "Lone Wolf" terrorist concern?

Far fetched?

I don't think so.

Re: No, You Can't Slap Cuffs on Peaceful Gun Owners

Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 1:37 pm
by The Annoyed Man
Abraham wrote:Am I the only one disturbed by folks strolling/trolling with AR 15's at the ready given the "Lone Wolf" terrorist concern?

Far fetched?

I don't think so.
Like I posted above:

Old lady: "Why the pistol, are you expecting trouble?"
Ranger: "No Ma'am. If I was expecting trouble, I'd have brought a rifle."

.......and that is exactly how most of the uninformed people in the world see it. "He has a handgun? Oh, that's for self protection." "He has a rifle? Well, he's not hunting, so he's expecting trouble. Somebody better call the law." Whether or not long gun OC demonstrators want to admit it, that's just a fact. In my role at my church, I have a LOT of conversations with other people—conservative, generally pro-gun people—and that is how they view it........without me putting that thought into their heads..... You have to be somehow psychologically disconnected from the human race not to understand that.

I love love love the AR15 and think everyone should have at least one of them. It doesn't bother me to see one carried cased up. it doesn't bother me to see someone carrying one uncased between car and shooting bench at a range. It doesn't bother me to see one carried uncased from vehicle to house, or to see somebody removing one uncased or putting it in the trunk of his car uncased. It doesn't bother me to see one openly carried between a parking lot and a gun store. It doesn't bother me to see one openly carried down a rural highway or out in a field. All of those are contextually appropriate ways to openly carry an AR15, and there others too.

Contextually INappropriate ways would be to walk into a Starbucks or a Target with a slung AR, or like THIS amazingly idiotic person who carried his at the low ready into the Washington state Capitol building:
Image

We live in a world where occasional active shooter situations get everyone's attention. ON THIS VERY FORUM, we have discussed how to react to someone shooting up the inside of a mall with an AR or AK...........so in the REAL WORLD, this stuff does happen. Maybe not very often, but it DOES happen........and when it does, it is spectacular and shocking enough to the average person that it leaves a lasting impression. The right that those same people have to not have anyone sneak up and light a firecracker under their butts, giving them a heart attack, is the EXACT same as the right that they have to not be confronted by some manure-brained slacker with a rifle in an inappropriate situation. So when they see monkey-boy in that photo entering the seat of government, carrying an AR in an arguably "aggressive" posture, it is going to scare the crap out of that observer, and frankly, THAT IS TOTALLY UNNECESSARY. Now, what if the observer is armed? What is HE going to think/say/do? Doesn't matter if we're talking about an LEO or a CHL here. Monkey-boy there has the social instincts of a beetle, and frankly, he is asking to get challenged, even taken down. His compadres with the slung weapons less so. If I were in that room in that moment, I would have assumed the worst and gone for my pistol grip. Why? Because as a rational person, I can't afford NOT to. What if I guess wrong, and he really IS about to open up?

I mention him because he represents the far extreme who would even worry a pro-gun, pro-AR15, pro-open carry guy like me. But I am not typical of the average American. What about someone who is ignorant about guns (most people are), and they see the guy in that video walking down the street? That person isn't thinking about rights and the Constitution and the 2nd Amendment. That person is thinking, "holy crap! A guy with a rifle!" That person remembers Columbine, Aurora, etc., etc., and he or she imagines that they are about to see their worst fear come true - an active shooter mass casualty situation. It doesn't matter if that's not the case, that is what they PERCEIVE............just like I perceive monkey-boy above as a threat and begin to react as if he's a threat, because that's the smart money bet.

People who OC long guns, but particularly long guns that have a lot of social myth surrounding them, bring all of that down on their own heads........ and then the incredible part is that they complain about it, like it is someone else's fault. Duh! "I didn't know I was going to get all wet if I jumped in the pool! Not fair!!!!" Like my wife often says, "IF you didn't want to go to Chicago, why did you get on the train?" It doesn't matter that it's legal, because most citizens and apparently a lot of LEOs too think it is not legal. The occasional person of questionable lineage such as Monkey-boy isn't educating anybody, and he's not changing anyone's mind in his favor.

Adults don't act like that. Adults understand that if you want to change hearts and minds, you don't start by scaring the pee out of people. You start by engaging them in conversations, calmly, and without confronting them with the object of their fears as an entry into that conversation. That is why these long gun OC demonstrations are so counter productive.

I've spent all the time on this that I'm willing to spend.

Re: No, You Can't Slap Cuffs on Peaceful Gun Owners

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:30 pm
by clarionite
TAM,

I have never seen that picture before, but I can imagine more than half of the members of this forum would have at least moved to a position of readiness, if not drawn on seeing that man enter their parameter.
It takes very little movement on his part for me to assume he's aiming.

Re: No, You Can't Slap Cuffs on Peaceful Gun Owners

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:42 pm
by RHenriksen
This is breathtakingly infuriating.
The Annoyed Man wrote:Contextually INappropriate ways would be to walk into a Starbucks or a Target with a slung AR, or like THIS amazingly idiotic person who carried his at the low ready into the Washington state Capitol building:
[ Image ]

Re: No, You Can't Slap Cuffs on Peaceful Gun Owners

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:42 pm
by treadlightly
In a weird way, we owe those morons in kilts with battle rifles an odd gratitude.

I know, it sounds like I've gone 'round the bend, and we would clearly be better off if their mothers had paid a little closer attention during their formative years. Please trust me. I'd really prefer they played armed dress-up in private.

But morons in kilts with rifles in public offer a certain benefit to the rest of us even if it takes a tongue in cheek to see it.

Every time an officer has to waste his time with those loons he gets used to that level of behavior as being the far end of the bell curve. Should I encounter a law enforcement officer while carrying a rifle it's going to be a different experience for the officer on many levels. Fill in all the necessary elements of common sense and courtesy. I'll continue my business, the officer will continue his duties, stress levels will be low, and in a way I can thank OCT and OCTC for setting the bar for idiocy higher than my natural reach.

Around 1980 I had a situation one night in my neighborhood in Austin that I felt presented a rational argument for self-preservation. There was, of course, no such thing as a CHL then and I think carrying a pistol was a felony. Serious, whatever the charge was.

The police surprised me when they walked up out of the shadows. I had a pistol in my hand behind my back. The truth and a grin (and the fact I was lawfully carrying on my own property) got past the handgun and my long hair with no trouble at all. I told them I was armed and suggested I lay the pistol on the table. The officers never even unsnapped their holster straps. Our conversation, even in those dark subconstitutional days, was calm and cordial.

I believe I'm correct in expecting my first law enforcement contact as a practicing CHL holder will be friendly - because I have quite a few expectations for myself. I want to behave in the manner of a law-abiding citizen and I want that to show.

Want to see my ID? Sure, neighbor, here's two for the price of one since there's something I should tell you about at 4 o'clock, IWB.

Re: No, You Can't Slap Cuffs on Peaceful Gun Owners

Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:15 pm
by EEllis
cb1000rider wrote:GRR..
" Bright then appealed to the Sixth Circuit, asserting qualified immunity from suit."

In other words, I'm not liable because it's reasonable for me not to actually know the law...
I find this whole qualified immunity bit ridiculous. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, unless you're a LEO, and then it gets you off the hook.

Really, I don't see how this incident is much different than what happened Grisham up in Temple, which had an entirely different judicial outcome.. (I do acknowledge that with a recording device, Grisham was probably expecting trouble).


Great test case for Ohio. The outcome in Texas, to date, has been very different.
I've got to say that I that the situation in CJ's case was very different. In ohio the guy was cooperative and didn't muddy the water.