The focal point for Texas firearms information and discussions
https://mail.texaschlforum.com/
bones281 wrote:There is a way to label those guys as gang members so that DPS would know. I use this system everyday. It's called TxGang. You might want to look into it.
If the guys aren't involved in criminal activity, whats the big deal?nightmare69 wrote:When I was in a gang training course taught by a local gang detective, he said that our area(also the area of my campus)is starting to see known gang members with valid LTC. The kicker is if they are not involved in any criminal activity there is nothing we can do about it because there isn't any stipulation forbidding gang members from applying for a LTC.
When you say "whenever", do you mean whenever you have contact with gang members and one if them is committing a crime, you arrest everyone of them under TPC 71.02 or just whenever you have contact with them?nightmare69 wrote:Whenever I've had contact with known gangs I try to charge them under TPC 71.02 and add on TPC: 71.028 to enhance it if the D.A. will take it.
If you take their LTC based on the fact that you believe they are gang members, what do you do with their firearms if you revoke then on the streets? Would you hand the pistol back to the "gang member" and let him be on his way or take it away since he can't carry under MPA?nightmare69 wrote:Unless there is prior or current criminal activity taking place then our hands are tied as it is not a crime to be a member of a criminal street gang. There needs to be some stipulation that allows LE to be able to revoke their license if we can prove they are a gang member.
^^^ This. This whole concept is a slippery slope.talltex wrote:to address each of the highlighted statements:nightmare69 wrote:I believe after 5yrs of a clean record they are taken off the gang information system in Texas. I've applied for access to this great system.cb1000rider wrote:I'll admit that I can't. Some of the biggest dirtbags on the planet tend to wear suits and ties and are much more dangerous to our wallets than a someone who wears less acceptable forms of clothing.Abraham wrote:nightmare69 ,
Some of us (for instance, you...) can identify a dirtbag when you see a dirtbag.
I'm fine with LTC getting taken away if gang membership is proven through a judicial process. I just don't want to shift the burden of proof the other way by abusing the legal process.
What do you do with "gang members" who turn their lives around and have no criminal record? Are they banned for life?
1. Just being a "dirtbag" isn't an illegal act. Until they've committed a criminal offense they are just a law abiding "dirtbag" with the same rights as anyone else.
2. I can't even agree with revoking a license just because they are proven to be a member of a particular group if they've never been arrested and convicted of anything. I personally can't stand rap music, sagging pants, sideways caps, or tattoos...but I don't have the right to tell others what they can listen to or wear or do to their own bodies as long as they are not committing illegal acts.
3. This whole discussion was about people that ALREADY have a CLEAN record...which was frustrating your desire to revoke their LTC.
Txgang, that's the system my Dept applied to use. It should be part of the application process.mojo84 wrote:bones281 wrote:There is a way to label those guys as gang members so that DPS would know. I use this system everyday. It's called TxGang. You might want to look into it.
Do you know if that system is accessed as part of the LTC background check process?
talltex wrote:EXACTLY!! WHEN you ARREST an LTC holder....at that point the same principle applies...not before. The problem is, you are wanting to be able to circumvent the legal process and revoke someone BEFORE they've actually committed any offense. You seek to appoint yourself judge and jury and declare someone guilty because, in your opinion, they MIGHT do something at some point in the future. That is just wrong!nightmare69 wrote: We should be able to fill out the paperwork to send to DPS as we do now when we arrest a LTC holder. Then they suspend the license pending final disposition. The process should be the same for a gang member.
Lol not at all. I would let DPS make that determination as we do now. This is my and many other LEOs opinion as we are the ones who deal with gang members and the rest of the scum on a daily basis. Believe what you like, I feel like gang members shouldn't have a LTC and nothing you say is going to change my mind.GlassG19 wrote:talltex wrote:EXACTLY!! WHEN you ARREST an LTC holder....at that point the same principle applies...not before. The problem is, you are wanting to be able to circumvent the legal process and revoke someone BEFORE they've actually committed any offense. You seek to appoint yourself judge and jury and declare someone guilty because, in your opinion, they MIGHT do something at some point in the future. That is just wrong!nightmare69 wrote: We should be able to fill out the paperwork to send to DPS as we do now when we arrest a LTC holder. Then they suspend the license pending final disposition. The process should be the same for a gang member.
I'm with you Talltex!
Unbelievable! That's a huge problem that people are trying to be the all above, Judge & Jury, that is just wrong is right!
Do you believe said gang members would not have a gun if they did not possess an LTC.nightmare69 wrote:Lol not at all. I would let DPS make that determination as we do now. This is my and many other LEOs opinion as we are the ones who deal with gang members and the rest of the scum on a daily basis. Believe what you like, I feel like gang members shouldn't have a LTC and nothing you say is going to change my mind.GlassG19 wrote:talltex wrote:EXACTLY!! WHEN you ARREST an LTC holder....at that point the same principle applies...not before. The problem is, you are wanting to be able to circumvent the legal process and revoke someone BEFORE they've actually committed any offense. You seek to appoint yourself judge and jury and declare someone guilty because, in your opinion, they MIGHT do something at some point in the future. That is just wrong!nightmare69 wrote: We should be able to fill out the paperwork to send to DPS as we do now when we arrest a LTC holder. Then they suspend the license pending final disposition. The process should be the same for a gang member.
I'm with you Talltex!
Unbelievable! That's a huge problem that people are trying to be the all above, Judge & Jury, that is just wrong is right!
Back to the LEO forums I go...cheers.
FINALLY...one of your statements I can agree with. Which is unfortunate, because as someone who intends to make a career of Law Enforcement, you should not view and approach the people you are sworn to "protect and serve" (even "the scum you deal with on a daily basis") with a closed mind and a preconceived confrontational attitude based on your limited experience.nightmare69 wrote:Lol not at all. I would let DPS make that determination as we do now. This is my and many other LEOs opinion as we are the ones who deal with gang members and the rest of the scum on a daily basis. Believe what you like, I feel like gang members shouldn't have a LTC and nothing you say is going to change my mind.GlassG19 wrote:talltex wrote:EXACTLY!! WHEN you ARREST an LTC holder....at that point the same principle applies...not before. The problem is, you are wanting to be able to circumvent the legal process and revoke someone BEFORE they've actually committed any offense. You seek to appoint yourself judge and jury and declare someone guilty because, in your opinion, they MIGHT do something at some point in the future. That is just wrong!nightmare69 wrote: We should be able to fill out the paperwork to send to DPS as we do now when we arrest a LTC holder. Then they suspend the license pending final disposition. The process should be the same for a gang member.
I'm with you Talltex!
Unbelievable! That's a huge problem that people are trying to be the all above, Judge & Jury, that is just wrong is right!
Back to the LEO forums I go...cheers.
talltex wrote:FINALLY...one of your statements I can agree with. Which is unfortunate, because as someone who intends to make a career of Law Enforcement, you should not view and approach the people you are sworn to "protect and serve" (even "the scum you deal with on a daily basis") with a closed mind and a preconceived confrontational attitude based on based on your limited experience.nightmare69 wrote:Lol not at all. I would let DPS make that determination as we do now. This is my and many other LEOs opinion as we are the ones who deal with gang members and the rest of the scum on a daily basis. Believe what you like, I feel like gang members shouldn't have a LTC and nothing you say is going to change my mind.GlassG19 wrote:talltex wrote:EXACTLY!! WHEN you ARREST an LTC holder....at that point the same principle applies...not before. The problem is, you are wanting to be able to circumvent the legal process and revoke someone BEFORE they've actually committed any offense. You seek to appoint yourself judge and jury and declare someone guilty because, in your opinion, they MIGHT do something at some point in the future. That is just wrong!nightmare69 wrote: We should be able to fill out the paperwork to send to DPS as we do now when we arrest a LTC holder. Then they suspend the license pending final disposition. The process should be the same for a gang member.
I'm with you Talltex!
Unbelievable! That's a huge problem that people are trying to be the all above, Judge & Jury, that is just wrong is right!
Back to the LEO forums I go...cheers.
with Talltex again.That's pretty much the same what I've heard before from one of my 'ole ex-HPD veteran retired LE friend. He has pretty much told that same observation to me. Y'all veterans "got it".16Adams wrote:Just an observation after a 30 year career in a large police department. I watched a lot of young rookies come and go. Two things they had in common: no hobbies and wanted to rewrite laws to their view in life. They burn out. Almost all departed and went into some type of sales job- where they failed. The mentality that "life should conform to me" is interesting. The lack of ability to adjust can make life and career choices a tough gig.
Stay safe and best of luck.
talltex wrote:to address each of the highlighted statements:nightmare69 wrote:I believe after 5yrs of a clean record they are taken off the gang information system in Texas. I've applied for access to this great system.cb1000rider wrote:I'll admit that I can't. Some of the biggest dirtbags on the planet tend to wear suits and ties and are much more dangerous to our wallets than a someone who wears less acceptable forms of clothing.Abraham wrote:nightmare69 ,
Some of us (for instance, you...) can identify a dirtbag when you see a dirtbag.
I'm fine with LTC getting taken away if gang membership is proven through a judicial process. I just don't want to shift the burden of proof the other way by abusing the legal process.
What do you do with "gang members" who turn their lives around and have no criminal record? Are they banned for life?
1. Just being a "dirtbag" isn't an illegal act. Until they've committed a criminal offense they are just a law abiding "dirtbag" with the same rights as anyone else.
2. I can't even agree with revoking a license just because they are proven to be a member of a particular group if they've never been arrested and convicted of anything. I personally can't stand rap music, sagging pants, sideways caps, or tattoos...but I don't have the right to tell others what they can listen to or wear or do to their own bodies as long as they are not committing illegal acts.
3. This whole discussion was about people that ALREADY have a CLEAN record...which was frustrating your desire to revoke their LTC.
man, you're hitting the nail right on the head.If you haven't done anything wrong why are you worried?cb1000rider wrote:Bones,
How do you get into this system? Is it by association / observation? Or is it by actual judicial conviction? Is the data purged after 5-years of being clean - meaning erased?
No one here wants active violent criminals to be licensed to carry firearms. But clearly there are many of us who don't want to put our gun rights in the hands of anyone working for the government without some level of judicial oversight.
anygunanywhere wrote:If you haven't done anything wrong why are you worried?cb1000rider wrote:Bones,
How do you get into this system? Is it by association / observation? Or is it by actual judicial conviction? Is the data purged after 5-years of being clean - meaning erased?
No one here wants active violent criminals to be licensed to carry firearms. But clearly there are many of us who don't want to put our gun rights in the hands of anyone working for the government without some level of judicial oversight.