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Re: What to do- Bull on property

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:24 pm
by Saffron
Pawpaw wrote:If livestock escape the fence and wander into a roadway, the owner is responsible for any damage that may result.
That seems reasonable. If only the same was true for dogs and minor children.
Pawpaw wrote:who do you think will be held responsible for that minivan that hits it and any lives on board?
Is that a trick question?

Re: What to do- Bull on property

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:29 pm
by rotor
Thanks for all of the suggestions. I feel more comfortable about handling the situation and have put the Sheriff phone number on my cell phone. Never knew there were so many livestock laws.

Re: What to do- Bull on property

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:43 pm
by Pawpaw
Saffron wrote:
Pawpaw wrote:If livestock escape the fence and wander into a roadway, the owner is responsible for any damage that may result.
That seems reasonable. If only the same was true for dogs and minor children.

I agree, it is reasonable. Pretty much anyone that is raising cattle has insurance that will cover it.
Pawpaw wrote:who do you think will be held responsible for that minivan that hits it and any lives on board?
Is that a trick question?

Not at all. You have to read the whole sentence I wrote to see it in context.

Re: What to do- Bull on property

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:02 pm
by Alf
AJSully421 wrote:Open any of your gates to the nearest road off your property, mount the aforementioned ATV, Yell "YAH" a bunch, and get Buford on to the road where you will get much more prompt and courteous service from the Sheriff's Department... now that it is firmly "their problem" being out on a road, not on your property.
Shoo!

Shovel. (the manure)

Shut up.

Re: What to do- Bull on property

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:05 pm
by cbunt1
der Teufel wrote:
These are Limousin cattle, for those who are interested. The bull the OP pictured could also be a Limousin, but I'm not an expert.
I'm inclined to agree with you on the OP photo -- Limosuin was my first thought too. If he is indeed Limosuin, they're very docile cattle, and easily trained to accept range cubes directly from one's hand -- I've had several that were essentially pets at feeding time.

That said, a 2000#+ bull, can indeed be dangerous even if he's not trying to hurt you -- the proverbial bull in a china shop, who doesn't know his own strength.

On the other hand, if he's Santa Gertrudis, also a possibility from that picture, I've never seen one that wasn't pure guano loco. I've owned two SG's, and both managed to put my dad and on top of feeders, fences, and make us generally run for cover -- I don't want anything to do with those King Ranch critters.

I can't believe someone isn't claiming this guy. He's a good looking bull, and were I still messing with cattle, would gladly use him as a clean-up bull, or even a herd sire. My guess is that he's a fence jumper (lots of bulls won't stay home) but surely some cows should have come in season and drawn him back to a herd.

As far as ID'ing him, pedigreed/registered cattle these days are more likely tattooed and/or chipped than visibly branded, at least in my experience --not a marking you're likely to get close enough to without a head gate and handling equipment -- assuming he's not been handled as someone's overgrown housepet (don't laugh -- all our bulls were gentled, or they didn't stay on the place)

One more possibility -- find the closest livestock auction, and inquire with the vet that works the auction...they serve as brand inspectors, but more importantly, they are often the first/best place to check with for lost/found cattle -- if someone's actuality looking for this guy, I'd bet the Auction vet will know about it, and he's likely to know who has similar cattle...

I've had many cattle cross fences, both onto and off of my place, but I can't say I've ever had a problem getting them home, or getting mine back...usually word gets out, and it only takes a few days....your situation is unusual.

For what it's worth, normal defense handgun calibers and rounds aren't reliable against charging cattle...they're not enough to instantly turn one off given the available target areas. Magnum rounds with penetrating hollow-points like you might hunt large game with would be most effective, and should it come to that, your best bet target is right between the eyes, but a frontal shot isn't likely to make an instant stop.

Re: What to do- Bull on property

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:35 pm
by rotor
cbunt1 wrote:
der Teufel wrote:
These are Limousin cattle, for those who are interested. The bull the OP pictured could also be a Limousin, but I'm not an expert.
I'm inclined to agree with you on the OP photo -- Limosuin was my first thought too. If he is indeed Limosuin, they're very docile cattle, and easily trained to accept range cubes directly from one's hand -- I've had several that were essentially pets at feeding time.

That said, a 2000#+ bull, can indeed be dangerous even if he's not trying to hurt you -- the proverbial bull in a china shop, who doesn't know his own strength.

snip
For what it's worth, normal defense handgun calibers and rounds aren't reliable against charging cattle...they're not enough to instantly turn one off given the available target areas. Magnum rounds with penetrating hollow-points like you might hunt large game with would be most effective, and should it come to that, your best bet target is right between the eyes, but a frontal shot isn't likely to make an instant stop.
Thank you for the info.

Re: What to do- Bull on property

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:46 am
by cbunt1
rotor wrote: Thank you for the info.
Just curious, if you don't mind my asking, what part of Texas is your place in (County?)

With a few feelers, and a bit of time, I might be able to help you find some guys who could come round this critter up and either get him home or at least get him out of your way.

Working cowboys are still a "thing," but it's almost all word-of-mouth type of work, and there used to be a decent (if not lightening fast) network of "I know a guy..." for that kind of help.

Re: What to do- Bull on property

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:42 am
by rotor
cbunt1 wrote:
rotor wrote: Thank you for the info.
Just curious, if you don't mind my asking, what part of Texas is your place in (County?)

With a few feelers, and a bit of time, I might be able to help you find some guys who could come round this critter up and either get him home or at least get him out of your way.

Working cowboys are still a "thing," but it's almost all word-of-mouth type of work, and there used to be a decent (if not lightening fast) network of "I know a guy..." for that kind of help.
Wichita County. The only problem is I never know if he will be there. I have personally been close once (30 feet) and he was gone. He showed up once on a game camera. Since then I have seen cow paddies but I haven't seen the big guy again. I think he is a fence jumper and comes and goes as he wishes. Since none of my neighbors claimed him he must be jumping a lot of fences. My fear as a city guy was the danger issue for me and mine. So far we haven't been in danger and I plan on calling the Sheriff if I see him again. Thanks for the offer though.

Re: What to do- Bull on property

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:48 am
by cbunt1
That's exactly what it sounds like to me. Once a large bull starts jumping fences, there's no keeping 'em home. Electric perimeter fences are the only prayer, and that's not the most effective fix either. 10' barbed wire will do it, but it's not worth the expense unless and until it becomes a much bigger problem...and the high fences come with their own set of issues in the long term.

Fortunately, if you were within 30' and all he wanted was away, you're probably not in any danger, and in my experience a "singleton" won't come after you. Every problem I've ever had in those situations has been with a cow and a young calf, or with multiple head working on the "pecking order."

Other than that the times I've been chased, kicked, head-butted, bitten (yes, I've been cow-bit! LOL) etc. have been times when I was in a pen with the animals and either working, crowding, herding, or otherwise directly making them unhappy...in other words I had it coming.

Hopefully it'll resolve itself and he'll find his herd.

Re: What to do- Bull on property

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:08 pm
by Greybeard
"Working Cowboy" buddy at the range today said uses a drone, sometimes even for herding.

Re: What to do- Bull on property

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:15 pm
by rotor
Greybeard wrote:"Working Cowboy" buddy at the range today said uses a drone, sometimes even for herding.
Don't think I didn't consider getting one. Phantom 4 or new Mavic pro. Their smart phone applications though still seem buggy. But, like guns, who needs an excuse to buy one.

Re: What to do- Bull on property

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:19 pm
by Jago668
Pawpaw wrote:This is incredibly bad advice. If livestock escape the fence and wander into a roadway, the owner is responsible for any damage that may result.
Yes and no. Here is my understanding of the law (not being a lawyer but growing up on a ranch). On a farm to market or county road Texas if there are no county laws then the owner has no responsibility. If there are such county laws in place, or if it occurs on a state or interstate highway then you have to prove the owner knowingly allowed the animals onto the road or the right of way. Previous escapes, gates left open, general upkeep of the fence; things of that nature. On an interstate I would imagine there are probably some federal laws, but I have no clue about those.

Re: What to do- Bull on property

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:37 pm
by Pawpaw
Jago668 wrote:
Pawpaw wrote:This is incredibly bad advice. If livestock escape the fence and wander into a roadway, the owner is responsible for any damage that may result.
Yes and no. Here is my understanding of the law (not being a lawyer but growing up on a ranch). On a farm to market or county road Texas if there are no county laws then the owner has no responsibility. If there are such county laws in place, or if it occurs on a state or interstate highway then you have to prove the owner knowingly allowed the animals onto the road or the right of way. Previous escapes, gates left open, general upkeep of the fence; things of that nature. On an interstate I would imagine there are probably some federal laws, but I have no clue about those.
It's actually far more complicated than that, but the smart move is to keep your stock fenced in to avoid any possible liability.

http://agrilife.org/texasaglaw/2014/05/ ... ot-part-1/

Re: What to do- Bull on property

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:41 pm
by WTR
Just call the Sheriff.

Re: What to do- Bull on property

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:04 pm
by J.R.@A&M
By coincidence, a lawyer colleague of mine who works for Texas A&M AgriLife posted a blog entry about this subject: http://agrilife.org/texasaglaw/2016/10/ ... ock-rules/

The answer sounds like it could have come from an economist, i.e., it depends.

Edited to note that this blog entry appears to be an update to the one Pawpaw linked to above.