Hedging the election

"A pistol is what you use to fight your way back to the rifle you never should have left behind!" Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch

Moderators: carlson1, Keith B

User avatar
ScottDLS
Senior Member
Posts: 5095
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:04 am
Location: DFW Area, TX

Re: Hedging the election

Post by ScottDLS »

Pawpaw wrote:
ScottDLS wrote:[quote="Bitter Clinger]...

Can't go wrong with a Colt LE 6920! :thumbs2:

I'm still mad at Colt for foisting the idiotic "large pushpin" lowers on the market after 1994, though they subsequently stopped. For those of you that don't know, this was a non-milspec AR15 style lower with a large takedown pin that wouldn't work with other AR15 uppers. The purpose was to keep the idiotic "post-ban" crippled guns from being converted to pre-ban configuration, which was illegal until 2004. The problem is none of the other AR15 pattern manufacturers did it. I found this out at gun show in 2002 when trying to by a pre-ban... A Colt snob dealer "schooled" me on how he would only sell the pre-94 small pushpin Colts for an outrageous premium, prompting me to walk over to the next table and buy a used Oly Arms pre-ban for $1000 less, while he glared at me for buying such an inferior gun. Now I'm a Bushmaster, or "roll your own" fan....
[/quote][/quote]
Um, it wasn't the takedown pins that were larger. It was the trigger and hammer pins & holes. :tiphat:[/quote][/quote][/quote]

It was the "pivot pins" too. The fire control group pins I think are still different between Colt AR15 variants and M16/M4's. Problem for some people with Registered Auto Sears or Registered Receivers that want to use Colt parts.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"
User avatar
Pawpaw
Senior Member
Posts: 6745
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:16 am
Location: Hunt County

Re: Hedging the election

Post by Pawpaw »

ScottDLS wrote:
Pawpaw wrote:
ScottDLS wrote:[quote="Bitter Clinger]...

Can't go wrong with a Colt LE 6920! :thumbs2:

I'm still mad at Colt for foisting the idiotic "large pushpin" lowers on the market after 1994, though they subsequently stopped. For those of you that don't know, this was a non-milspec AR15 style lower with a large takedown pin that wouldn't work with other AR15 uppers. The purpose was to keep the idiotic "post-ban" crippled guns from being converted to pre-ban configuration, which was illegal until 2004. The problem is none of the other AR15 pattern manufacturers did it. I found this out at gun show in 2002 when trying to by a pre-ban... A Colt snob dealer "schooled" me on how he would only sell the pre-94 small pushpin Colts for an outrageous premium, prompting me to walk over to the next table and buy a used Oly Arms pre-ban for $1000 less, while he glared at me for buying such an inferior gun. Now I'm a Bushmaster, or "roll your own" fan....
[/quote]
Um, it wasn't the takedown pins that were larger. It was the trigger and hammer pins & holes. :tiphat:[/quote][/quote][/quote]

It was the "pivot pins" too. The fire control group pins I think are still different between Colt AR15 variants and M16/M4's. Problem for some people with Registered Auto Sears or Registered Receivers that want to use Colt parts.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]
There's no difference any more. I have two Colts (LE-6520 & LE901-16S) and have replaced both trigger groups with CMC triggers and standard size pins. The 901 uses longer pins, but that's because the receiver has been strengthened (thicker metal) to better handle the 7.62 recoil impulse.
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams
User avatar
Skiprr
Moderator
Posts: 6458
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:50 pm
Location: Outskirts of Houston

Re: Hedging the election

Post by Skiprr »

philip964 wrote:If I buy Ruger will it be inter changeable with other parts that are "Milspec" ? Milspec means its inter changeable.

I need to buy two as they must break a lot?
I'm very late getting back to this party, but most questions have been answered I think.

The vast majority (and "vast" might need to be capitalized) of AR-15s on the market are manufactured based on identical fundamental patterns and specifications, and operate the same way. That's one of the most important reasons for their popularity. If you shop around and come across one that has something proprietary about it--gas piston versus direct impingement, for example--the info will tell you. For a new AR owner-to-be, I'd steer away from any proprietary operating features.

And, no, they don't break a lot. :mrgreen: But the dominance of the rifle in the marketplace and that standardized interchangeability means that, for very little money, you can buy some spare parts and have just about anything you'd ever need to keep the rifle running for many years...even if a new Clinton "assault weapon" ban comes down the pike and restricts your ability to buy another rifle.

And that same marketplace dominance and standardization makes an AR, IMHO, one of the easiest firearms to work on yourself, even with almost zero gunsmithing background. I think that's partly why they become addictive. Several umpteen videos are available on YouTube to guide you through just about anything you'd ever want to do; minimal tools are needed for any operation, all but maybe a roll-pin punch and an inexpensive combo armorer's wrench you'll already have in your tool drawer; and cheap and plentiful parts for anything but the lower receiver (the part that's the actual serial-numbered "gun") can be delivered to your doorstep by your friendly UPS driver. A great article opening from http://www.reloaderaddict.com:
Building an AR-15 is as American as watching baseball while eating apple pie at your mother’s house as bald eagles cavort in the backyard. A surprisingly simple firearm to assemble from parts, you only really need one specialized tool, and the ability to handle a few small fiddly bits, or at least an extensive vocabulary for when a tiny spring goes flying off into the air.
philip964 wrote:I've never hunted. But I always like larger. What is the next size cartridge for a rifle that works for hunting and works with a carbine that is available at stores? And what rifle would that be?
You'll get different opinions here. One thing that's particularly attractive about the AR-15 platform is that you can change it from shooting 5.56 ammo to other calibers without having to get a brand new gun; one of the most popular is the .300 AAC Blackout. All you need to do is buy a complete upper chambered for .300 AAC (technically, you only need to change out the barrel, but just plugging on a separate, complete upper is far easier and quicker). No mystery: the "upper" is not the serial-numbered gun, so you don't have to buy it through an FFL. It contains the barrel, the bolt carrier group, the gas system, and the charging handle.

The upper attaches to the lower receiver with two, sturdy pins that simply slide out. You push out the takedown and pivot pins; you lay your 5.56 upper on the table; you match the pivot pin holes on your .300 AAC upper to your lower; you push that pin in; you pivot the back of the upper into place and push in the takedown pin. Voila! In 60 seconds and with zero tools you now have a rifle chambered in the larger .300 AAC Blackout caliber. And any sights or optics you have attach to the upper, so when you switch out uppers you're already sighted in and good to go.

One of the reasons the .300 AAC is so popular is that it provides performance similar to a 7.62x39 round (a la, an AK-47), but you can use the very same AR magazines you already bought for your 5.56 ammo.

But you aren't limited to 5.56 and .300 AAC with your new AR-15 rifle. It's easiest to switch back and forth with the .300 AAC because you're using the same magazines, but other conversion kits are available. Without changing the firearm itself--the lower receiver that has the fire controls and trigger you've come to be familiar with--you can get conversion kits that shoot .22 LR, 6.5 Grendel, .50 Beowulf, .450 Bushmaster, and .458 SOCOM; the latter gives you several bullet styles and weights to choose from, all the way up to a hefty 600 grains.

All that said, I fall back to my recommendation of staying with NATO specification ammo...until and if you decide to branch out and go with other calibers. In essence, for me that means 9mm, 5.56x45, 7.62x51, and 12-gauge shells. So I chose to go with the .308 as my larger caliber, and even though things like the 6.5 Creedmoor will outperform it at distance, it's important to me to have as (relatively) few chamberings as possible so that the ammo I buy can be used in multiple guns. If I were rich and had an extra 600 or 800 square feet in my home to turn into a walk-in vault, I'd be less concerned about caliber standardization. :mrgreen: Still on my to-buy list is a Ruger Precision Rifle; the best performance choice would be the Creedmoor, but I'll stay with the .308.

The 5.56x45 was adopted by the U.S. military and NATO in part because it was accurate and flat-shooting to a reasonable distance, had virtually no recoil and could be easily controlled by most any shooter, even in three-round bursts, and because an infantryman could carry a whole lot more of it than he could the then-standard 7.62x51 battle rifle cartridge. The American .308 was modified slightly and adopted in the '50s as the 7.62x51 NATO standard. It remains a marvelous all-around utility cartridge: it packs a punch, has good ballistics for long-distance shooting, can bring down any animal in North America, and is readily available in different forms, from precision match and hunting rounds to milsurp bulk buys.

(BTW, not to get geeky again, but you want your AR-15 chambered to handle 5.56x45 NATO because that round is SAAMI-spec loaded to a higher pressure than the .223, but that barrel can shoot the .223 all day long. A little different with the 7.62x51 NATO. That round specs with slightly thicker brass and at a maximum chamber pressure of 50K psi; the .308 is loaded to a maximum pressure of 60K. Most modern rifles will be happy with either, but if buying one it's better to go with the higher-rated .308 chambering.)

There are no conversion kits to make an AR-15 into an AR-10, the design and manual-at-arms equivalent of (and predecessor to) the AR-15. The important parts aren't interchangeable, so if you want an AR-style carbine or rifle in .308, it means a new rifle and new magazines. That being the case, there's also nothing to say that--if you already have your handy AR-15 and want something that packs more wallop at distance--you necessarily need a semi-auto in .308. I'd personally prefer at least something with an external, detachable magazine, but there are some great and relatively inexpensive bolt-action rifles out there that would augment the AR-15.

I can get on jags where I type so much it's almost as if I'm possessed by The Annoyed Man. I know nobody got past the third paragraph here, and I'm no expert. I'm just voicing personal opinion and, so long as I'm not entirely incorrect about everything, the info gets lodged into the internet and someone searching the subject a year from now might find it at least minimally useful.

And now all of this reminds me that I need to go search around for current deals on .308 ammo...
Join the NRA or upgrade your membership today. Support the Texas Firearms Coalition and subscribe to the Podcast.
I’ve contacted my State Rep, Gary Elkins, about co-sponsoring HB560. Have you contacted your Rep?
NRA Benefactor Life Member
User avatar
Bitter Clinger
Banned
Posts: 2593
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:16 pm
Location: North Dallas

Re: Hedging the election

Post by Bitter Clinger »

"5.56 x 49"? Have I been getting shorted my 4mm? :biggrinjester:
"You may all go to H3ll, and I will go to Texas." - Davy Crockett
"Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." - Wyatt Earp
NRA Life Member
לעולם לא תשכח
User avatar
Pawpaw
Senior Member
Posts: 6745
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:16 am
Location: Hunt County

Re: Hedging the election

Post by Pawpaw »

Bitter Clinger wrote:"5.56 x 49"? Have I been getting shorted my 4mm? :biggrinjester:
Yep! The entire industry has been putting one over on you. :lol:
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams
User avatar
Bitter Clinger
Banned
Posts: 2593
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:16 pm
Location: North Dallas

Re: Hedging the election

Post by Bitter Clinger »

Pawpaw wrote:
Bitter Clinger wrote:"5.56 x 49"? Have I been getting shorted my 4mm? :biggrinjester:
Yep! The entire industry has been putting one over on you. :lol:
No way! I am going to exchange my 5.56 x 45 for some for some 7.62 x 55! :smilelol5:
"You may all go to H3ll, and I will go to Texas." - Davy Crockett
"Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." - Wyatt Earp
NRA Life Member
לעולם לא תשכח
User avatar
Pawpaw
Senior Member
Posts: 6745
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:16 am
Location: Hunt County

Re: Hedging the election

Post by Pawpaw »

ScottDLS wrote:
Pawpaw wrote:
ScottDLS wrote:[quote="Bitter Clinger]...

Can't go wrong with a Colt LE 6920! :thumbs2:

I'm still mad at Colt for foisting the idiotic "large pushpin" lowers on the market after 1994, though they subsequently stopped. For those of you that don't know, this was a non-milspec AR15 style lower with a large takedown pin that wouldn't work with other AR15 uppers. The purpose was to keep the idiotic "post-ban" crippled guns from being converted to pre-ban configuration, which was illegal until 2004. The problem is none of the other AR15 pattern manufacturers did it. I found this out at gun show in 2002 when trying to by a pre-ban... A Colt snob dealer "schooled" me on how he would only sell the pre-94 small pushpin Colts for an outrageous premium, prompting me to walk over to the next table and buy a used Oly Arms pre-ban for $1000 less, while he glared at me for buying such an inferior gun. Now I'm a Bushmaster, or "roll your own" fan....
[/quote]
Um, it wasn't the takedown pins that were larger. It was the trigger and hammer pins & holes. :tiphat:[/quote][/quote][/quote]

It was the "pivot pins" too. The fire control group pins I think are still different between Colt AR15 variants and M16/M4's. Problem for some people with Registered Auto Sears or Registered Receivers that want to use Colt parts.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]
I completely forgot about that goofy screw-in pivot pin. Sorry.
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams
User avatar
Skiprr
Moderator
Posts: 6458
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:50 pm
Location: Outskirts of Houston

Re: Hedging the election

Post by Skiprr »

Pawpaw wrote:
Bitter Clinger wrote:"5.56 x 49"? Have I been getting shorted my 4mm? :biggrinjester:
Yep! The entire industry has been putting one over on you. :lol:
I have absolutely no idea what you guys are talking about.

Image
Join the NRA or upgrade your membership today. Support the Texas Firearms Coalition and subscribe to the Podcast.
I’ve contacted my State Rep, Gary Elkins, about co-sponsoring HB560. Have you contacted your Rep?
NRA Benefactor Life Member
User avatar
snorri
Senior Member
Posts: 398
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Hedging the election

Post by snorri »

Skiprr wrote:One of the reasons the .300 AAC is so popular is that it provides performance similar to a 7.62x39 round (a la, an AK-47), but you can use the very same AR magazines you already bought for your 5.56 ammo.
All the punch of 7.62x39mm at three times the price. :mrgreen:
minatur innocentibus qui parcit nocentibus

RED FLAG LAWS ARE HATE CRIMES
User avatar
Skiprr
Moderator
Posts: 6458
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:50 pm
Location: Outskirts of Houston

Re: Hedging the election

Post by Skiprr »

AndyC wrote:
Skiprr wrote:And now all of this reminds me that I need to go search around for current deals on .308 ammo...
TAM pointed me recently at Freedom Munitions - so I ordered/received almost 50 lbs of their reman (remanufactured) .308 ammo a few weeks back, most of which was their 150gr FMJ at around 51c ea which is a good price to stash away as bulk ammo.
Yeppers. That's actually most of what I've shot in .308 for about two years. Even the best deals right now on milsurp like Prvi M80 comes in between 50-cents and around 53. Palmetto State has Magtech 147 gr for $24.99 per 50. But I've been on Freedom's "notify me" list for a month to let me know when their 150 gr reman is back in stock. I've been very happy with it, and also buy their 5.56 reman for range plinking. Because Freedom has a retail storefront in Texas, we have to pay sales tax, but you can get on their mailing list for the periodic free or reduced shipping offers they have.

Speaking of that store, it isn't far from where I'll go vote today or tomorrow. Think I'll drop by just in the unlikely event they have some of the reman .308 on the shelf even if it's out of stock on the website.

Back to AR-15s, Friday I bought a Black Rain Ordnance billet (machined 7075 T6) stripped lower from Primary Arms: http://www.primaryarms.com/black-rain-o ... er-bro-mlr. The regular price of $299 isn't an inflation; that's what Black Rain sells it for if purchased direct. The only reason I can figure that PA hasn't already sold out is that you have to add the lower to the shopping cart to see the selling price, so I'll bet the $299 figure throws folks off. The actual price right now is $149. Seemed too good to pass up for a quality billet lower.

And if someone wants to put together a basic AR chambered in 7.62x39 to take advantage of cheap Wolf and Brown Bear ammo, Midway has a decent price on a kit that includes an A2 fixed-sight complete upper (no rear sight), M4 stock and buffer tube/spring, and a lower parts kit with a basic fire control group and A2 grip. The AR-Stoner kit from Midway is $410. Spring $50-$70 for a stripped lower, and someone could slap together an entry-level AR in 7.62x39 for under $500.
Join the NRA or upgrade your membership today. Support the Texas Firearms Coalition and subscribe to the Podcast.
I’ve contacted my State Rep, Gary Elkins, about co-sponsoring HB560. Have you contacted your Rep?
NRA Benefactor Life Member
uthornsfan
Senior Member
Posts: 490
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:13 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Hedging the election

Post by uthornsfan »

Sgammo has 1970s hirtenberger for around 50 cents a round.

In regards to the black rain lower. I would rather but 3 regular Anderson Arms or any other regular lower at 50 bucks a pop than just 1 at 3x the price.
parabelum
Senior Member
Posts: 2717
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:22 pm

Re: Hedging the election

Post by parabelum »

Thanks to this thread I picked this up today, it was too nice to pass up. I shouldn't have clicked on this thread ... :banghead:

I didn't have black flip up sights so I stuck my diamondhead FDE on (if anyone wants to trade sights in DFW let me know :mrgreen: ).

Image
User avatar
Skiprr
Moderator
Posts: 6458
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:50 pm
Location: Outskirts of Houston

Re: Hedging the election

Post by Skiprr »

parabelum wrote:Thanks to this thread I picked this up today, it was too nice to pass up. I shouldn't have clicked on this thread ...
A lot of Topics around here have a way of doing that. Somehow, it also seems that anytime I get into a conversation with Andy, I end up buying stuff. With zero intention of another build, I figured the stripped Black Rain lower would feel awfully incomplete just sitting in the safe, so I bought an Aero Precision lower parts kit, a Spike's heavy buffer, spring, and tube, and a Magpul stock. Will probably slap it together next weekend. Bought the 10-pack of Magpul magazines from Brownell's, also; they'll be here Monday. At least I've refrained from considering a new upper for the new lower.

Hm. I wonder if there are any really good deals out there right now on complete uppers....

Darn it! :banghead:
Join the NRA or upgrade your membership today. Support the Texas Firearms Coalition and subscribe to the Podcast.
I’ve contacted my State Rep, Gary Elkins, about co-sponsoring HB560. Have you contacted your Rep?
NRA Benefactor Life Member
Post Reply

Return to “Rifles & Shotguns”