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srothstein wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:46 pm I notice one interesting thing about that shelled hospital. I could be wrong, but I do not see any holes in the walls of it such as would result from a direct hit. The destruction I saw looks more like concussion from near misses, such as hitting a building nearby or counter-battery fire against an artillery unit in the field next to the hospital.

Some of the apartment buildings nearby appear to have hits from light artillery, but only a few. That strikes me as someone was shelling a target nearby. Artillery is not always a precision weapon. Much as I cannot always put bullets in the same hole at fifty feet using a bench rest, a cannon cannot put its shells in the same spot every time.

Since the media is only showing the aftermath (for justifiable reasons), I am forced to admit that the evidence shows a possibility that Russia was telling the truth about firing at a military target and the damage is simply collateral damage from that.

I support Ukraine in this war, but I am also honest enough to admit that it is possible they put military targets near a hospital. Not directly using it as human shield type cover, but in an urban war it is hard to not have things happen like that near schools and hospitals. We built our cities that way.

The Annoyed Man wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:23 pm

srothstein wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:46 pm I notice one interesting thing about that shelled hospital. I could be wrong, but I do not see any holes in the walls of it such as would result from a direct hit. The destruction I saw looks more like concussion from near misses, such as hitting a building nearby or counter-battery fire against an artillery unit in the field next to the hospital.

Some of the apartment buildings nearby appear to have hits from light artillery, but only a few. That strikes me as someone was shelling a target nearby. Artillery is not always a precision weapon. Much as I cannot always put bullets in the same hole at fifty feet using a bench rest, a cannon cannot put its shells in the same spot every time.

Since the media is only showing the aftermath (for justifiable reasons), I am forced to admit that the evidence shows a possibility that Russia was telling the truth about firing at a military target and the damage is simply collateral damage from that.

I support Ukraine in this war, but I am also honest enough to admit that it is possible they put military targets near a hospital. Not directly using it as human shield type cover, but in an urban war it is hard to not have things happen like that near schools and hospitals. We built our cities that way.

And I’m not saying that Russia deliberately targeted a maternity hospital…but I am saying that they shelled it none the less. And if Russia had not invaded Ukraine, that maternity hospital would not have been shelled. At all.

Artillery and rocket barrages are battlefield denial weapons. They’re meant for flattening an entire grid square, not for surgically precise strikes. Russia knows this, as does any other first world nation. Short of total hyper-war, like the retaking of Manila or Hue, there’s NO excuse for this. If you have to strike a target in the middle of an urban environment, then for God's sake, use a drone with a guided missile, like our Reaper/Hellfire, or use a surgical air strike with appropriately sized smart-bombs. Russia surely has this technology. Surely they know how to use it. They have no moral ground to stand on for not using it.

If they want to complain that their aircraft are at risk to Ukrainians with MANPADs, well, that’s their problem. If they had not invaded Ukraine, their aircraft would not be at risk. They do not have a moral leg to stand on.

Ukraine has EVERY right to defend their national sovereignty. Russia had NO right to violate Ukraine's national sovereignty. Absent that right, it’s none of their damned business if Ukraine emplaces a defensive military asset near a hospital, whether or not it was intentionally done that way. It’s simply not Russia's decision to make. But it IS Russia's responsibility if her battlefield commanders commit war crimes. Certain Americans went on trial for atrocities committed in the GWOT…ostensibly to accomplish some mission or other. What’s good for them is good for Russians too. Lock those thuggish Russians up.

The Annoyed Man wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:23 pm Artillery and rocket barrages are battlefield denial weapons. They’re meant for flattening an entire grid square, not for surgically precise strikes.

srothstein wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:46 pm I notice one interesting thing about that shelled hospital. I could be wrong, but I do not see any holes in the walls of it such as would result from a direct hit. The destruction I saw looks more like concussion from near misses, such as hitting a building nearby or counter-battery fire against an artillery unit in the field next to the hospital.

Some of the apartment buildings nearby appear to have hits from light artillery, but only a few. That strikes me as someone was shelling a target nearby. Artillery is not always a precision weapon. Much as I cannot always put bullets in the same hole at fifty feet using a bench rest, a cannon cannot put its shells in the same spot every time.

Since the media is only showing the aftermath (for justifiable reasons), I am forced to admit that the evidence shows a possibility that Russia was telling the truth about firing at a military target and the damage is simply collateral damage from that.

I support Ukraine in this war, but I am also honest enough to admit that it is possible they put military targets near a hospital. Not directly using it as human shield type cover, but in an urban war it is hard to not have things happen like that near schools and hospitals. We built our cities that way.

oljames3 wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 12:34 am

The Annoyed Man wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:23 pm Artillery and rocket barrages are battlefield denial weapons. They’re meant for flattening an entire grid square, not for surgically precise strikes.

Artillery, in its main role, is an indirect-fire, area weapon. However, the US has GPS guided cannon munitions having a circular error probable of 3 meters. We also have GPS guided rockets having the same CEP. The Russians do not have this same capability. The Russians do have smart bombs, but seem to not be using them. In any case, guided direct-fire missiles or smart bombs are much better weapons to use for urbans areas.

EXPOSED! What the Ukrainian Invasion has Revealed about Russian Military Power

parabelum wrote: Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:05 am Two of the victims were a pregnant woman and her unborn child. May you rot forever Putin.
What supposed to have been a joyful future was shattered, all because of the true nazi Putin and his unnecessary invasion and killing.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/ukrainian ... l-mariupol

oljames3 wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 11:37 pm Expecting the Russian government, and by extension its military, to behave as we do is akin to expecting violent criminal actors to behave as good, sane, sober, moral, prudent people. Just as violent criminal actors do not think as good, sane, sober, moral, prudent people, neither does the Russian government or its military. The US Army has Field Manual 6-27 (August 2019), the Commander's Handbook on the Law of Land Warfare which gives guidance on the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC). https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs ... WEB_v2.pdf If the Russian military has a book about LOAC, I feel confident that it very different from ours.

Based on Russian military actions during the Cold War as well as tactics used in Afghanistan and Syria, we can see their strategies and tactics have changed little. The Russian military started the invasion of Ukraine with a heavy artillery bombardment and air strikes aimed at defeating the Ukrainian air force. Putin's leadership seems to have resulted in a lack of maintenance and weapons procurement that may be an explanation for stalled convoys and the lack of the use of guided munitions. In the past, stalled Russian military leaders have used indiscriminate, large scale bombardment and chemical weapons.

Ward Carroll is a retired Navy Commander (O-5) who served 20 years as a Radar Intercept Officer in the F14 Tomcat. He has posted a clear and concise discussion of the Russian invasion of Ukraine on his YouTube channel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liKtIsMoPoA

EXPOSED! What the Ukrainian Invasion has Revealed about Russian Military Power

Paladin wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:44 pm Falsehood In War Time (1928) is more true today than ever before, and is of course being used on all sides:

1. We do not want war.
2. The opposite party alone is guilty of war.
3. The enemy is inherently evil and resembles the devil.
4. We defend a noble cause, not our own interests.
5. The enemy commits atrocities on purpose; our mishaps are involuntary.
6. The enemy uses forbidden weapons.
7. We suffer small losses, those of the enemy are enormous.
8. Recognized artists and intellectuals back our cause.
9. Our cause is sacred.
10. All who doubt our propaganda are traitors.

Prayers for a return to sanity and an end to this preventable conflict.