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bonded bullets = good.

DoubleJ wrote:bonded bullets = good.

bonded bullets = bad for the bad guy

joe817 wrote:I'm kind of looking for plain ole' JHP's in 9mm.....the kind that don't cost $1.00/round. Any suggestions, anybody?

Winchester has had hollow points in the white box. They were just a little more than WWB FMJs I have bought them to make sure I'm not having feed issues, and I don't have any idea what their balistic charactoristics are. I haven't sen them since the Obaman shortage though. Hopefully once things losen up we will see them and NATO loads again.

Not sure if this has been asked or not....but I have a CZ-82 that I am hoping to use as one of my CCW. I am new to the CHL and wondering what ammo the group would recommend for CC? I use Brown Bear for target, but wouldn't mind investing more in some good defensive ammo?

Also if may is it true that you should shoot USA ammo through USA made guns and foreign ammo through foreign made guns?

Thanks, look forward to being on this board.

John

Hi John! Welcome to the forum! There's a wealth of info here for you, and a great bunch of guys & gals to get to know. Friends can be made here.

Hmmmm....interesting question, but I don't see how stateside made vs. overseas made ammo could make a difference, as the strength of a gun lies in its steel. Good quality made foreign made guns, function just as well as stateside made guns.(Don't shoot me!!! Just expressing my opinion!!)

IMO it's in the QC standards of ammo makers. Most stateside mfgrs. have good QC standards and a lot of offshore makers do as well. I would question the quality of offshore makers that are beginning to make their mark on the market...namely Wolf(made in Russia). That's the first that comes to mind. Belloit is French made if I remember correctly, and they are ALMOST on par to the likes of Remington, Winchester, Hornady, etc.......but not quite, IMO.

Bulk foreign made ammo, especially from former eastern bloc countries, are suspect I believe, and I wouldn't use them.

Just my 2 cents worth, if that has any value to begin with. But it's my opinion, & I'm unanimous in that.
Wolf is the only foreign made ammo that comes to mind.

Thanks joe, I appreciate it....I am looking forward to learning more and I think this will be a great place for me to learn.

John

I use Powerball in my Kimber Ultra Carry. I could not get any other hollow points to feed reliably.

Just some food for thought.


http://link.brightcove.com/services/pla ... 1395583425" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MidWay USA has several boxes of Ye Olde Hornady Critical Defense FTX ammo fer yer 9mm.
it is the 115gr variety.

Crapshoot wrote:Just some food for thought.


http://link.brightcove.com/services/pla ... 1395583425" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The argument that I'm not concerned about performance through an obstacle (car door, window glass, interior wall) is nonsense. Since when did bad guys stop trying to run people down? Since when do bad guys not duck behind the corner of a wall in your home? I'm concerned about over-penetration only to the extent that its a real problem when I miss, but I'm far more concerned about it with my shotgun or WASR-10 than with my handgun. For my pistol, I choose what feeds and will expand reliably. I carry it to many different locales with many performance challenges. To suggest that I have less need for reliable performance than a LEO because I don't pursue criminals is silly.

Mithras61 wrote:

Crapshoot wrote:Just some food for thought.


http://link.brightcove.com/services/pla ... 1395583425" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The argument that I'm not concerned about performance through an obstacle (car door, window glass, interior wall) is nonsense. Since when did bad guys stop trying to run people down? Since when do bad guys not duck behind the corner of a wall in your home? I'm concerned about over-penetration only to the extent that its a real problem when I miss, but I'm far more concerned about it with my shotgun or WASR-10 than with my handgun. For my pistol, I choose what feeds and will expand reliably. I carry it to many different locales with many performance challenges. To suggest that I have less need for reliable performance than a LEO because I don't pursue criminals is silly.

Reliability isn't the concern brought up in the video. Those paying close attention would have understood that the idea is for CIVILIANS to recognize they are not cops and would most likely use their weapon in an environments highly populated or in close proximity to innocent bystanders. Your job as a CHL holder requires you to be more responsible than not only the bad guys but also the common man. And as somebody with experience regarding home invasions, most the time a bad guys gets wind he's found out he turns and runs. As with most cowards, homes invaders don't like to stick around and take the chance they go to jail. That normally only happens in the movies. And if you do some research, personal defense shotshell rounds and smaller tactical rounds( i.e. .223 or 5.56) are less likely to over penetrate through obstacles like walls than your standard 9 mm rnd. Please reference Shooting Times Personal Defense Edition Dec/09 Issue Article titled Three Judges by Eric Poole. Your concern for the well being and defense(as in not offense) of others in supposed to be as important if not more so than the defense of your self.
There are(thank God) several brands and types of ammo made for us(personal/home defense). Take Hornaday Critical Defense ammo for example. Perfect for going through clothing and still expanding well, not walls. Remember Rambo was cool but his job was to take lives not save them. I consider myself a fair shot. So taking in acount that I probably won't miss how bad would I feel if the little girl I was trying to save is hit by the same bullet that took down her assailant. Again just some food for thought....

Crapshoot wrote:Just some food for thought.


http://link.brightcove.com/services/pla ... 1395583425" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I just lost all respect for DickMetcalf. just sitting down with that fat, bloated, retard from Illinois shoulda been a hint, but after hearing him talk, wow. brain hurt, need pills....
I know, they were trying to figure out an argument for Hornady's ammo. I don't think they needed to come up with this asinine bull, perpetuating stereotypes and bias in the process, to fill that need. Hornady's stuff is pretty good on it's own, just from a numbers standpoint!
in reality, they argued against it, defusing any real desire to buy this stuff if you want it to go through a jacket or door, or table, before performing. I disagree with these two brain farts.

there is NO gap between what you want a cop's ammo to do and what a civillian's ammo should do. sweet lord in heaven...

Crapshoot wrote: Reliability isn't the concern brought up in the video. Those paying close attention would have understood that the idea is for CIVILIANS to recognize they are not cops and would most likely use their weapon in an environments highly populated or in close proximity to innocent bystanders. Your job as a CHL holder requires you to be more responsible than not only the bad guys but also the common man. And as somebody with experience regarding home invasions, most the time a bad guys gets wind he's found out he turns and runs. As with most cowards, homes invaders don't like to stick around and take the chance they go to jail. That normally only happens in the movies. And if you do some research, personal defense shotshell rounds and smaller tactical rounds( i.e. .223 or 5.56) are less likely to over penetrate through obstacles like walls than your standard 9 mm rnd. Please reference Shooting Times Personal Defense Edition Dec/09 Issue Article titled Three Judges by Eric Poole. Your concern for the well being and defense(as in not offense) of others in supposed to be as important if not more so than the defense of your self.
There are(thank God) several brands and types of ammo made for us(personal/home defense). Take Hornaday Critical Defense ammo for example. Perfect for going through clothing and still expanding well, not walls. Remember Rambo was cool but his job was to take lives not save them. I consider myself a fair shot. So taking in acount that I probably won't miss how bad would I feel if the little girl I was trying to save is hit by the same bullet that took down her assailant. Again just some food for thought....

You miss my point that there is little or no difference in what I want/need handgun ammo to do and what a cop needs handgun ammo to do. Performance reliability requirements are the same. I suspect that over-penetration concerns are higher on a cop's list than on mine, since chances are pretty good that there won't be many bystanders when thugs jump me.

Setting that aside, I prefer the performance measures found at The Box O' Truth, which teaches (among other things) that while there are some small differences in performance between handgun calibers (of typically acceptable calibers - e.g. between .357 and .45), there is a much larger difference (huge, even) between the performance of handguns and the performance of rifle/shotgun rounds. I especially liked their penetration testing in the "Original Chapters." It isn't as fancy as some testing, but its definitely real-world. Their testing shows that rifle rounds (even "small caliber" rounds like the .223/5.56mm) pretty commonly penetrate significantly further than handgun rounds.

Since I don't have the article (Shooting Times Personal Defense Edition Dec/09 Issue Article titled Three Judges by Eric Poole) that you reference, I can't comment on what (if any) change in opinion I may have after reading the article. Perhaps you could give us an excerpt from it that supports your position that I have a responsibility to defend others?

Without that article, my concern for the defense of others is quite limited. I have no responsibility to defend others (excepting my family) at all. I do have a responsibility to ensure that my bullets don't cause injury to bystanders, but they are on their own as far as their personal defense goes. They have just as much opportunity to acquire and learn to use handguns as I do. It's not MY job to protect them from the thugs.

Mithras61 wrote:

Crapshoot wrote: Reliability isn't the concern brought up in the video. Those paying close attention would have understood that the idea is for CIVILIANS to recognize they are not cops and would most likely use their weapon in an environments highly populated or in close proximity to innocent bystanders. Your job as a CHL holder requires you to be more responsible than not only the bad guys but also the common man. And as somebody with experience regarding home invasions, most the time a bad guys gets wind he's found out he turns and runs. As with most cowards, homes invaders don't like to stick around and take the chance they go to jail. That normally only happens in the movies. And if you do some research, personal defense shotshell rounds and smaller tactical rounds( i.e. .223 or 5.56) are less likely to over penetrate through obstacles like walls than your standard 9 mm rnd. Please reference Shooting Times Personal Defense Edition Dec/09 Issue Article titled Three Judges by Eric Poole. Your concern for the well being and defense(as in not offense) of others in supposed to be as important if not more so than the defense of your self.
There are(thank God) several brands and types of ammo made for us(personal/home defense). Take Hornaday Critical Defense ammo for example. Perfect for going through clothing and still expanding well, not walls. Remember Rambo was cool but his job was to take lives not save them. I consider myself a fair shot. So taking in acount that I probably won't miss how bad would I feel if the little girl I was trying to save is hit by the same bullet that took down her assailant. Again just some food for thought....

You miss my point that there is little or no difference in what I want/need handgun ammo to do and what a cop needs handgun ammo to do. Performance reliability requirements are the same. I suspect that over-penetration concerns are higher on a cop's list than on mine, since chances are pretty good that there won't be many bystanders when thugs jump me.

Setting that aside, I prefer the performance measures found at The Box O' Truth, which teaches (among other things) that while there are some small differences in performance between handgun calibers (of typically acceptable calibers - e.g. between .357 and .45), there is a much larger difference (huge, even) between the performance of handguns and the performance of rifle/shotgun rounds. I especially liked their penetration testing in the "Original Chapters." It isn't as fancy as some testing, but its definitely real-world. Their testing shows that rifle rounds (even "small caliber" rounds like the .223/5.56mm) pretty commonly penetrate significantly further than handgun rounds.

Since I don't have the article (Shooting Times Personal Defense Edition Dec/09 Issue Article titled Three Judges by Eric Poole) that you reference, I can't comment on what (if any) change in opinion I may have after reading the article. Perhaps you could give us an excerpt from it that supports your position that I have a responsibility to defend others?

Without that article, my concern for the defense of others is quite limited. I have no responsibility to defend others (excepting my family) at all. I do have a responsibility to ensure that my bullets don't cause injury to bystanders, but they are on their own as far as their personal defense goes. They have just as much opportunity to acquire and learn to use handguns as I do. It's not MY job to protect them from the thugs.

I'm not here to prove anything to you. You have obviously decided where your priorities fall. But IMO those that think there is little difference in regards to performance between LEOs and private citizens are flawed in there thinking. However, I am satisfied in that by your own words your honest intentions and concerns, and frankly your perception in regards to the tie between being a man of conviction and integrity and the 2nd Amendment are now plainly known.
And if you fully read what I said the article states data on penetration issues not moral responsiblity. I'm sure you can find it at a local Barnes & Nobles or some such place.
And thats all I'm going to say on the issue.

I personally want a caliber such that if I miss and hit the person in the arm, the other arm falls off too!

Since I haven't found such a caliber I prefer 45ACP, but primarily carry 9mm as I don't have a 4" 1911 yet.