open carry

[Oldgringo]

As I've opined many times previously, let's not fix what ain't broke. We have it good in Texas with our CHL and our 30.06 signs. Go to AZ and VA and some other "Gold Star OC" states, spend some time, and report back on documented OC sightings.

I'm starting to wonder if some of the rabid OC proponents may be anti-gunners in drag.

[srothstein]

So, think about places where you walk in the door and are greeted by associates: Wal-Mart, Home Depot (returns desk), many restaurants with hosts/hostesses, etc. And all they have to do is say 'I'm sorry sir, we don't allow guns in here.' Now, you are not only prohibited from open carry, but you have been given verbal notice that you can't carry in their business PERIOD, even with a CHL and you are now persona non grata.

I support open carry, even though I think this is not the time to push for it yet. I support the small steps tactic until we have full constitutional carry.

But in all my thinking and talking, I had not considered this aspect of it. I am not sure if I agree that there will be a lot of signs posted or not, though I think there will be some that we don't have. But I can definitely see this taking place. And you are correct that it would constitute a permanent ban.

The sole question I have left on it is if there will be enough customers turned away that a business will say they are losing too much in sales and need to rethink their policy or they are not losing that much and can keep it. This could truly harm the cause if enough businesses realize that the CHL's that are dedicated enough to avoid that store even when not armed are a very small group. And it would be very easy for a store to have the doorkeeper keep a count of how many people he turns away and compare it to the gross sales.

This convinces me more than than ever before that this is a bad bill and we need to be very careful in our tactics as we advance our rights.

[flintknapper]

We just have not seen great efforts to stop OC on by store owners, shopkeeps, etc. anywhere else in the US (can't count CA), so what makes everyone think that it will happen in Texas?

It has already happened in Texas. "No gun" signs were an epidemic from 1995 until we changed the law in 1997 (9/1/97) and small, simple, generic "no gun" signs and decals no longer applied to CHL's. The "Big Ugly Sign" that TPC §30.06 requires is aesthetically unacceptable to most business owners, so they don't post the signs to prohibit guns people can't see. Open-carry changes the landscape dramatically and will force many businesses to post 30.06 signs to placate customers who complain about "those people" with guns.

Trying to rely upon the experience of other states while ignoring what actually happened in Texas is like saying there can't be any fire ants in Texas since there are none in Alaska.

Chas.

Texas history if full of events that never happened again. What happened in '95 is well in the past. Society is ever evolving, acceptance (or not) of any given subject is fluid. Lets be fair.

I do not believe the public will have fainting spells over OC should ever become law.

You're right, it may not happen again. But when some argue that it won't happen in Texas because it didn't happen in [name your state] it is far more speculative than worrying what did happen in Texas.

In 2009 when the OpenCarry.org billboard and radio ads were out, two different TV stations in Houston ran news spots on open-carry. Some of them did "man on the street" interviews and all but one or two people interviewed said they didn't like the idea of people openly carrying guns. Some stated that concealed carry was fine, but not open-carry. That's not a scientific study, but it is information.

My point is that open-carry supporters need to acknowledge the risk exists, then take steps to prevent it. This means education and promotion long before a legislative session, then drafting a very short and concise bill that protects TPC §30.06 and finding an "author" who will carry it and be willing to kill his own bill if anything is added that hurts current concealed-carry rights. It causes a rift when open-carry supporters dismiss such concerns as being afraid of the dark. I would welcome open-carry supporters who would say "you're right; it did happen in 1995 and it could happen again. What can we do to prevent a negative backlash by the business community?" Those are people I could work with on a number of issues.

Chas.

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Agreed.

[cbr600]

deleted

[Oldgringo]

Interesting on the signage. Is there a similar risk with private colleges in the campus carry bill?

Members of the public can and do walk around college campuses, sightseeing and whatnot. It's legal for a CHL to stroll around the grounds until he feels at home, as long as he's outside. I think it's even legal for a non-CHL to leave their gun in their car on campus under MPA. Students can be expelled and professors can be fired, but school policy doesn't apply to the rest of us.

Let's suppose HB 750 becomes law and Rice University opts out by posting 30.06 signs at each entrance to campus. Then a CHL holder can't carry on the grounds and, arguably, can't even leave it in their car in an on campus parking lot.

One more time: Should campus carry pass for Texas CH licensees, people will have to make the same decisions where they want to send their tuition as we do now with 30.06 signs and which businesses we frequent and where we spend those dollars.

[Oldgringo]

So, think about places where you walk in the door and are greeted by associates: Wal-Mart, Home Depot (returns desk), many restaurants with hosts/hostesses, etc. And all they have to do is say 'I'm sorry sir, we don't allow guns in here.' Now, you are not only prohibited from open carry, but you have been given verbal notice that you can't carry in their business PERIOD, even with a CHL and you are now persona non grata.

I support open carry, even though I think this is not the time to push for it yet. I support the small steps tactic until we have full constitutional carry.

But in all my thinking and talking, I had not considered this aspect of it. I am not sure if I agree that there will be a lot of signs posted or not, though I think there will be some that we don't have. But I can definitely see this taking place. And you are correct that it would constitute a permanent ban.

The sole question I have left on it is if there will be enough customers turned away that a business will say they are losing too much in sales and need to rethink their policy or they are not losing that much and can keep it. This could truly harm the cause if enough businesses realize that the CHL's that are dedicated enough to avoid that store even when not armed are a very small group. And it would be very easy for a store to have the doorkeeper keep a count of how many people he turns away and compare it to the gross sales.

This convinces me more than than ever before that this is a bad bill and we need to be very careful in our tactics as we advance our rights.

EXACTLY!

I'm not opposed to OC; however, I am very much opposed to any OC legislation that is passed at the expense of my CHL.

[VMI77]

snip.....
I do not believe the public will have fainting spells over OC should ever become law.

You would genuinly hate the City I live in. While politics here are typically conservative and most believe in the right to own guns. Many here see open carry as a sign of the wild west and many here have concerns about the safety of their children that are completely unfounded. Unfortunately, that is what we are dealing with here. I can't count how many folks I have heard tell me that they have no problem with people owning guns but have a serious issue with the "average Joe" walking around in public with one. These are common feelings held in "The Big Cities" all across Texas. I am not going to defend the ignorance, but I am also not going to tell them to "suck it up and live with it" because they won't!

And it doesn't matter if out of the 97% of people who don't have CHL's, 90% don't complain, because the 10% who do will outnumber us almost three to one, many of them will have liberal anti-gun agendas, and they will have emotion on their side. The numbers are against us on this. When you consider the fact that even spouses of people posting here ask questions like, "why do you need a gun to go to Walmart," we're going to lose more than we gain with OC.

[steveincowtown]

snip.....
I do not believe the public will have fainting spells over OC should ever become law.

Nor do I...

#1> Will Open Carry cause the demise of CHL's everywhere and make signs appear everywhere. Nope. We have already established that OC'ing is so rare, and most people just think they are LEO, etc. Who is going to panic when so few will do it, and of those who do it, so few with be noticed?

#2> Is the proposed Law the way it should be done? I don't think so. It is sloppy and leaves to many open ends. I think we have learned from CHL statute that all bases need to be covered...twice.

#3> (The following is not meant disrepectfull, but...)There are a lot of CHL instructors on this board. Having a discussion with someone who earns income off the current law about pushing forward with full Constitutional Carry is somewhat like your boss calling you into a meeting to get your input on how to eliminate your position.

[G.A. Heath]

#1: I don't think that OC will cause the "demise" of the CHL, but it will hurt licensees. Larger cities, and businesses such as chain stores, will see more valid 30.06 signs.
#2: Your right here, the proposed bill coulda/shoulda been written better.
#3: I'm not a CHL instructor, but I really don't think they are making a living off of their CHL classes. Of the few that I personally know one barely breaks even. Besides we are not talking about constitutional carry at this time and I would honestly prefer that when we do start looking at it we go about it the same way that AK and AZ did. They have legal open and concealed carry without a permit, but the permit is there for those who wish to take advantage of reciprocity agreements and carry in other states.

[MasterOfNone]

#3> (The following is not meant disrepectfull, but...)There are a lot of CHL instructors on this board. Having a discussion with someone who earns income off the current law about pushing forward with full Constitutional Carry is somewhat like your boss calling you into a meeting to get your input on how to eliminate your position.

I am an instructor, and I take no offense to your concern. While I do get compensated for my time and materials, it is not the reason I became an instructor. I'm cheap and often free. I would love to see license-free carry, despite the minor loss I would suffer. But until then, I will continue to teach the required classes to help others get licensed. And as we gain more friends with CHLs, we will be better able to remove or reduce such barriers.

[steveincowtown]

#3> (The following is not meant disrepectfull, but...)There are a lot of CHL instructors on this board. Having a discussion with someone who earns income off the current law about pushing forward with full Constitutional Carry is somewhat like your boss calling you into a meeting to get your input on how to eliminate your position.

I am an instructor, and I take no offense to your concern. While I do get compensated for my time and materials, it is not the reason I became an instructor. I'm cheap and often free. I would love to see license-free carry, despite the minor loss I would suffer. But until then, I will continue to teach the required classes to help others get licensed. And as we gain more friends with CHLs, we will be better able to remove or reduce such barriers.

I think there are many like you, and also many instructors who lead the fight for CHL in the first place. I wish we could get organized again like that for OC, as I think the current efforts are very disjointed. A personal thanks to all the instructors that are building the CHL community at little or no benefit to themselves.

[03Lightningrocks]

#1: I don't think that OC will cause the "demise" of the CHL, but it will hurt licensees. Larger cities, and businesses such as chain stores, will see more valid 30.06 signs.
#2: Your right here, the proposed bill could/shoulda been written better.
#3: I'm not a CHL instructor, but I really don't think they are making a living off of their CHL classes. Of the few that I personally know one barely breaks even. Besides we are not talking about constitutional carry at this time and I would honestly prefer that when we do start looking at it we go about it the same way that AK and AZ did. They have legal open and concealed carry without a permit, but the permit is there for those who wish to take advantage of reciprocity agreements and carry in other states.

I will also add another comment. There is no way any CHL instructor is making enough money at this to be concerned over losing revenue to OC. They are not charging enough to be making any appreciable source of revenue per year for teaching CHL classes. Many classes will have only a couple students. Most of the folks I know who are teaching CHL classes are doing it because they enjoy it, have strong feelings about gun ownership and self defense and like to help others to gain this ability. The extra "pocket change" is not the reason.

[KC5AV]

#3> (The following is not meant disrepectfull, but...)There are a lot of CHL instructors on this board. Having a discussion with someone who earns income off the current law about pushing forward with full Constitutional Carry is somewhat like your boss calling you into a meeting to get your input on how to eliminate your position.

I'm have been an instructor for almost a year. So far, I have made less teaching CHL classes than I make in a single pay period at my job. I think you'll find that the majority of us use it as a way to supplement our income or feed our gun habit. I suspect that there are relatively few instructors who make their living that way, unless they also offer additional training.
That said, your point is still valid, to a degree.

[Keith B]

I heard the way to end up with a small fortune teaching CHL classes is to start out with a large fortune.

[DoubleJ]

I heard the way to end up with a small fortune teaching CHL classes is to start out with a large fortune.