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I'm not an expert on this by any means, but a standard for revolver and another for semi-autos seem like a good idea to me.

snatchel wrote: I could definately use some practice with a handgun, it would be nice to be as proficient with it as a long gun. Let me know if I can help or do anything Andy.

Ditto for me on the practice and the help....

geekwagun wrote:

I'm not an expert on this by any means, but a standard for revolver and another for semi-autos seem like a good idea to me.

If we're aiming for practical application, this doesn't make sense to me.

Part of the value of the exercise derives from learning how well both you and your chosen equipment fare when you go up against the time, movement, and accuracy requirements of a real world defensive encounter.

Keep in mind that the dynamics of an incident won't change in your favor if you choose to handicap yourself with a small caliber or limited capacity handgun. Time frames won't lengthen, attacks won't slow down, bad guys won't be more easily disabled, misses won't get alibis, and there sure as shootin' won't be any timeouts for reloads.

I support designing the course along the lines of a generic defensive encounter against at least 2 assailants and preserving the full value of learning from it.

Excaliber wrote:
If we're aiming for practical application, this doesn't make sense to me.

Part of the value of the exercise derives from learning how well both you and your chosen equipment fare when you go up against the time, movement, and accuracy requirements of a real world defensive encounter.

Keep in mind that the dynamics of an incident won't change in your favor if you choose to handicap yourself with a small caliber or limited capacity handgun. Time frames won't lengthen, attacks won't slow down, bad guys won't be more easily disabled, misses won't get alibis, and there sure as shootin' won't be any timeouts for reloads.

I support designing the course along the lines of a generic defensive encounter against at least 2 assailants and preserving the full value of learning from it.

Well said. In an actual defensive confrontation the tools you have chosen to use are the tools YOU have chosen to use. If YOUR selections put you at a disadvantage, because a bigger weapon is not too comfortable, or because Texas is just too hot in the summer to try to conceal my "other" carry weapon, or it is just too hard to fit a weapon of higher capacity in a front pants pocket, then perhaps, this exercise will be an eye-opener for some to reconsider their choice of tools or the manner in which they are carried.

On the other hand, it might provide incentive to increase the skill level with the tool choices that have been made.

Please understand that I am not trying to disagree with anyone's choice of carry weapon or the reasons for any particular selection. Certainly any is better than none, but as Excaliber correctly pointed out, the real world is not particularly understanding or compassionate or fair.

I need LOTS of practice before being able to get close to that

What range is letting you practice like that? All the ones I've been to prohibit rapid fire.

AndyC wrote:Had some fun at the range - and was so excited to try out various options for the trial that I forgot to switch on my little video-camera until right at the end. It shows a horrible, very slow draw - total time from the beep was 2.15 seconds for a Mozambique (double-tap to the body and 1 to the head) on target 1 and a double-tap into target 2. Oh well - that's sure going to force me to do better - time from concealment to the first shot should be around 0.9 secs and a total time of around 1.8 secs.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=XJktVWAT0lc[/youtube]

The beep came from my iPhone I'm tucking into my shirt pocket right at the start of the video - I set the free SureFire ShotTimer app to have a delayed beep of 5 seconds with a 2.2 sec par-time (you can just hear the second beep indicating the 2.2 sec time a fraction after the final shot).

There's always some variation from run to run.

That looked pretty darn good to me, even if it was .35 seconds over your expectation. Without a precision timer, it wouldn't be noticed.

Andy, I have to say, I am impressed. I've seen you shoot slow aimed fire from a static position, and you're no slouch. But that was the first time I've seen you run a drill of any kind. I'm fairly certain that I could not draw and get 5 rounds off at 2 targets that fast.

Instead of catering to one gun or another, just go with what you want to use for the drill/test.... if you were down to 5 shots plus a reloaded 6th then that works for just about anything... if not, no big deal. I won't get upset if the drill is harder for me for sometimes carrying a j frame. The weapon one carries is a compromise of several factors.

Some drills will always work better with one gun or another. God forbid one of us get into a real life SD situation, only bits and pieces of any physical drill we train to, might matter, but the mental aspect of training to survive will no doubt carry over.

And that was with a .45! Very nice, Andy!

I don't know if it would throw a kink into the developing plan, but what about people being able to use their primary for the first 5 shots and their BUG for the last shot. For me, my primary is a M&P 9c and my BUG is a S&W .357 airweight. Otherwise, I'm easy.

AndyC wrote:Had some fun at the range - and was so excited to try out various options for the trial that I forgot to switch on my little video-camera until right at the end. It shows a horrible, very slow draw - total time from the beep was 2.15 seconds for a Mozambique (double-tap to the body and 1 to the head) on target 1 and a double-tap into target 2. Oh well - that's sure going to force me to do better - time from concealment to the first shot should be around 0.9 secs and a total time of around 1.8 secs.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=XJktVWAT0lc[/youtube]

The beep came from my iPhone I'm tucking into my shirt pocket right at the start of the video - I set the free SureFire ShotTimer app to have a delayed beep of 5 seconds with a 2.2 sec par-time (you can just hear the second beep indicating the 2.2 sec time a fraction after the final shot).

v-rog wrote:And that was with a .45! Very nice, Andy!

I don't know if it would throw a kink into the developing plan, but what about people being able to use their primary for the first 5 shots and their BUG for the last shot. For me, my primary is a M&P 9c and my BUG is a S&W .357 airweight. Otherwise, I'm easy.

AndyC wrote:Had some fun at the range - and was so excited to try out various options for the trial that I forgot to switch on my little video-camera until right at the end. It shows a horrible, very slow draw - total time from the beep was 2.15 seconds for a Mozambique (double-tap to the body and 1 to the head) on target 1 and a double-tap into target 2. Oh well - that's sure going to force me to do better - time from concealment to the first shot should be around 0.9 secs and a total time of around 1.8 secs.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=XJktVWAT0lc[/youtube]

The beep came from my iPhone I'm tucking into my shirt pocket right at the start of the video - I set the free SureFire ShotTimer app to have a delayed beep of 5 seconds with a 2.2 sec par-time (you can just hear the second beep indicating the 2.2 sec time a fraction after the final shot).

I think you've come up with the solution for folks who want to run the drill with a J-frame - bring a BUG if that is part of one's routine carry package.

Reverting to the backup gun was known where I come from as the New York Reload because NYPD officers routinely used their backup revolvers when their K frames ran out of fodder before the fight was over.

It's not as fast as having more rounds in the magazine, but it's a good sight quicker than reloading the primary.

The impact of various carry gun combinations on performance time frames can help one make a good decision on how well one's daily carry package would meet the need in a sudden defensive encounter. That's good info to have ahead of time - and not good to discover during a fight if it should turn out that the equipment isn't up to the mission.

AndyC wrote:Thanks. I don't normally do drills in public view - probably because I have an experimental mindset and fall over the edge quite a lot when trying things

That particular drill isn't anything fancy - just a Mozambique and a double-tap as done by every IPSC and IDPA shooter. I was trying out various drills in an effort to get an idea of some street-realistic times which will stretch folks and force them to get aggressive with the target in order to achieve the times (yet not be impossible). I also thought you guys might enjoy seeing me mess it up

I gotta give you credit for posting the first run even though it didn't fully meet your standards.

A less humble guy would have recorded 10 or so runs through the exercise and posted only the best one.