TexasCHLforum.com

NguyenVanDon wrote:

Spacedoggy wrote:The bottom line is, would you kill someone over your wallet? I hope not.

I have already answered this question already. Read through the post and you'll find a few times I said NO.

The fact that you asked in the first place made me want to put my two cents in.

hi-power wrote:What is in your wallet that cannot be replaced except for a few dollars?

My only existing copy of a picture of my late wife.

NguyenVanDon wrote:Yes, sorry for my instructor. He's very "Gung-Ho". He even told the class if someone came up to him face to face and pointing a gun at him point blank, he will not stand down. He will actually try to pull his weapon out and kill the other guy first.

Besides the implicit misuse of the term "point blank", IMHO drawing against a trigger is tantamount to suicide.

NguyenVanDon wrote:It is 12:30am at night. You're traveling from Dallas to Houston. You decided to pull over to the nearest gas station and refill. As you are refilling your gas, you see in a distant 3 males walking towards you. They have not done or said anything to you, but yet you expect they are a threat to you. They are getting closer about 25 feet away from you. By using only Force, not Deadly Force, are you allowed to draw your weapon out to just stop them from getting closer to you?

Just to address this scenario.......

Maybe it's just me, but what about the weapon you already have in your hand?

If you're acosted while fueling, just withdraw the nozzle and threaten to spray them . I would think they would want to withdraw posthaste.

Let me ask you this:

Did your CHL instructor discuss conflict deescalation?

My CHL instructor discussed it at great length, and I am more concerned about that than I am about when I can draw my gun. The law is fairly clear, and just because it's legal to draw it, doesn't mean I have to.

My gun is there as an absolute last resort. As someone earlier pointed out, it's at the end of the force continuum.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:As TX stated, robbery is a combination of two other crimes. A shorthand version is robbery is theft plus assault.

Chas.

Same scenerio on the first page:

It's 2pm. Outside the grocery store. The guy runs and Tackles me on the floor, takes my wallet, got up, and started running.

Am allowed to shoot him?

NguyenVanDon wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:As TX stated, robbery is a combination of two other crimes. A shorthand version is robbery is theft plus assault.

Chas.

Same scenerio on the first page:

It's 2pm. Outside the grocery store. The guy runs and Tackles me on the floor, takes my wallet, got up, and started running.

Am allowed to shoot him?

NO. You MIGHT be justified under Texas law, but the lawful use of deadly force is a defense to prosecution. (Not a defense from prosecution) If you met all of the requirements of penal 9..42 and can establish reasonable doubt on the issue, you could be found not guilty of charged.

I am not saying you definately would be charged, but you certainly could be.


§9.02. Justification as a defense.

It is a defense to prosecution that the conduct in question is
justified under this chapter.


§2.03. Defense.

(a) A defense to prosecution for an offense in this code is
so labeled by the phrase: "It is a defense to prosecution . . . ."

(b) The prosecuting attorney is not required to negate the
existence of a defense in the accusation charging commission of the
offense.

(c) The issue of the existence of a defense is not submitted
to the jury unless evidence is admitted supporting the defense.

(d) If the issue of the existence of a defense is submitted
to the jury, the court shall charge that a reasonable doubt on the
issue requires that the defendant be acquitted.

READ section 9.

NguyenVanDon wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:As TX stated, robbery is a combination of two other crimes. A shorthand version is robbery is theft plus assault.

Chas.

Same scenerio on the first page:

It's 2pm. Outside the grocery store. The guy runs and Tackles me on the floor, takes my wallet, got up, and started running.

Am allowed to shoot him?

Nothing really has changed, it's still just robbery, not ag robbery. Plus the fight is over, he's running away.

gregthehand wrote:

NguyenVanDon wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:As TX stated, robbery is a combination of two other crimes. A shorthand version is robbery is theft plus assault.

Chas.

Same scenerio on the first page:

It's 2pm. Outside the grocery store. The guy runs and Tackles me on the floor, takes my wallet, got up, and started running.

Am allowed to shoot him?

Nothing really has changed, it's still just robbery, not ag robbery. Plus the fight is over, he's running away.

Robbery is listed as one of the crimes deadly force is justified to prevent if the other requirements are met, and DF is also justified to prevent a person from fleeing with your property after committing a robbery, if the other conditions are met.

It's 2pm. Outside the grocery store. The guy runs and Tackles me on the floor, takes my wallet, got up, and started running.

Am allowed to shoot him?

Once again are you really willing to take a human life over a few dollars? Not to keep repeating myself but at that point the fight is over and in my opinion there is no need to shoot. One of the few pieces of property I would be willing to kill to recover would be 1 of my guns not much else would be worth me shooting over.

NguyenVanDon wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:As TX stated, robbery is a combination of two other crimes. A shorthand version is robbery is theft plus assault.

Chas.

Same scenerio on the first page:

It's 2pm. Outside the grocery store. The guy runs and Tackles me on the floor, takes my wallet, got up, and started running.

Am allowed to shoot him?

You might get away with it if you managed to draw and fire while he was in the act of assaulting you, but not while he's retreating.

glocklvr wrote:

It's 2pm. Outside the grocery store. The guy runs and Tackles me on the floor, takes my wallet, got up, and started running.

Am allowed to shoot him?

Once again are you really willing to take a human life over a few dollars? Not to keep repeating myself but at that point the fight is over and in my opinion there is no need to shoot. One of the few pieces of property I would be willing to kill to recover would be 1 of my guns not much else would be worth me shooting over.

Once again, I am not going to shoot anyone that would steal my wallet.

The reason why I am bringing up all the scenerio is because I never mention to my instructor. He didn't explain stuff very well and it left me and my friend thinking. That's the whole reason because of this thread.

NguyenVanDon wrote:

glocklvr wrote:

It's 2pm. Outside the grocery store. The guy runs and Tackles me on the floor, takes my wallet, got up, and started running.

Am allowed to shoot him?

Once again are you really willing to take a human life over a few dollars? Not to keep repeating myself but at that point the fight is over and in my opinion there is no need to shoot. One of the few pieces of property I would be willing to kill to recover would be 1 of my guns not much else would be worth me shooting over.

Once again, I am not going to shoot anyone that would steal my wallet.

The reason why I am bringing up all the scenario is because I never mention to my instructor. He didn't explain stuff very well and it left me and my friend thinking. That's the whole reason because of this thread.

I understand very well where you are coming from, and it is good to continue to ask questions.
the quest for knowledge is a great one. It's not always about the destination, but about the journey as well.

just remember that you have other options before you bring the gun into play.

I think you are getting several different questions answered, instead of just what you asked.

To get the strict answer on what is legal, study the Penal Code, both Chapter 9 on justifications, and the specific crimes referred to so you know the difference between a theft and a robbery. From what i swa earlier, TXInvestigator gave you some very good legal advice on what is legal. Note that in the new scenario, this is a robbery and deadly force may be used to stop a person fleeing from a robbery if no other force would recover the property.

On all of the legal questions, remember that, as a general rule, it is illegal to shoot people in Texas. All Chapter 9 does is a defense to prosecution. This means that you may be arrested and charged, and win at the trial but you would still go through the whole enchilada.

Many other people are answering if the shooting would be justified morally or ethically. This is always a personal question that only you can answer for you. Each person makes his own decision on when he feels comfortable shooting. Some will almost never shoot over property while others will defend a single miscellaneous piece of paper. My answer will not be the same as yours, in all likelihood. As you think of what you would really do in these cases, remember the answers you got here. These people are all more pro-gun than the average citizen who will be on your jury. It may make a difference in your answer for real life cases.