TexasCHLforum.com

PaJ wrote:

v7a wrote:PaJ, are you saying that there's a threshold at which the goal of reducing suicide in an at-risk demographic becomes more important than protecting the individual's right to armed self-defense? If so, that's not any different than what many anti-gun people believe. They just have a different threshold and think that keeping a handgun in your own home is an unacceptable suicide risk (the "guns should be kept in a locker at the range" crowd).

Many students commit suicide after bullying. Should we restrict the 1st Amendment rights of students to reduce those suicides?

Truly, I'm struggling between what I believe our rights are and what my son tells me is a bad idea from what he sees. I mentioned to him that I always had guns in my dorm room for hunting or whatever. His response was, "from what I see, I wouldn't be comfortable with some people having guns in the dorm."

Prior to yesterday's discussion, I was 100% for any CHL holder to carry on campus (dorm or otherwise). When he made his comments, I even thought that this sounded like "anti" influence, which is why I asked other "well what about in this case?" kind of questions. But when he boiled it down to carrying on campus is fine and should happen. But from what he sees while living in the dorms, he thinks that would be a bad idea, it gives me reason to more deeply explore my position. How do you monitor it? Do they leave it in cars? I'm not sure. Concealed anytime anywhere is much easier for sure. And maybe his thoughts are influenced by others. Once implemented, maybe his fears/concerns are unfounded (like many other 'anti' fears of the wild west, etc).

Or maybe I need to get him out of the dorms because it's full of unstable people.

Today's college students are not the college students of yesteryear. Cost and admissions policies used to limit who went to college to mostly serious students. You either had to have parents who could afford to pay, be willing to work a job to pay your own way, or demonstrate unusual academic achievement and earn a scholarship. The ubiquitous student loan program and lowering of academic standards has put many many "students" in college who really don't belong there because they lack either the maturity, the intelligence, or both.

I had one son at A&M and one at UT Austin in the past few years. Both were shocked by the all around ignorance and stupidity of the majority of students. Most shocking to them was the conduct of the female students. That's the fault of me and their mother I suppose, bringing them up to expect more maturity, sobriety, and propriety from young females than from young males.

And it's not just the dorms. My UT son lived in a dorm the first year (and was shocked by the sense of entitlement on display there) and an off campus apartment the rest of the time, but the apartments were close to campus and the residents were mostly students, and their behavior wasn't any better and probably worse than behavior in the dorm.

VMI77 wrote:

PaJ wrote:

v7a wrote:PaJ, are you saying that there's a threshold at which the goal of reducing suicide in an at-risk demographic becomes more important than protecting the individual's right to armed self-defense? If so, that's not any different than what many anti-gun people believe. They just have a different threshold and think that keeping a handgun in your own home is an unacceptable suicide risk (the "guns should be kept in a locker at the range" crowd).

Many students commit suicide after bullying. Should we restrict the 1st Amendment rights of students to reduce those suicides?

Truly, I'm struggling between what I believe our rights are and what my son tells me is a bad idea from what he sees. I mentioned to him that I always had guns in my dorm room for hunting or whatever. His response was, "from what I see, I wouldn't be comfortable with some people having guns in the dorm."

Prior to yesterday's discussion, I was 100% for any CHL holder to carry on campus (dorm or otherwise). When he made his comments, I even thought that this sounded like "anti" influence, which is why I asked other "well what about in this case?" kind of questions. But when he boiled it down to carrying on campus is fine and should happen. But from what he sees while living in the dorms, he thinks that would be a bad idea, it gives me reason to more deeply explore my position. How do you monitor it? Do they leave it in cars? I'm not sure. Concealed anytime anywhere is much easier for sure. And maybe his thoughts are influenced by others. Once implemented, maybe his fears/concerns are unfounded (like many other 'anti' fears of the wild west, etc).

Or maybe I need to get him out of the dorms because it's full of unstable people.

Today's college students are not the college students of yesteryear. Cost and admissions policies used to limit who went to college to mostly serious students. You either had to have parents who could afford to pay, be willing to work a job to pay your own way, or demonstrate unusual academic achievement and earn a scholarship. The ubiquitous student loan program and lowering of academic standards has put many many "students" in college who really don't belong there because they lack either the maturity, the intelligence, or both.

I had one son at A&M and one at UT Austin in the past few years. Both were shocked by the all around ignorance and stupidity of the majority of students. Most shocking to them was the conduct of the female students. That's the fault of me and their mother I suppose, bringing them up to expect more maturity, sobriety, and propriety from young females than from young males.

And it's not just the dorms. My UT son lived in a dorm the first year (and was shocked by the sense of entitlement on display there) and an off campus apartment the rest of the time, but the apartments were close to campus and the residents were mostly students, and their behavior wasn't any better and probably worse than behavior in the dorm.

Soooo, what's your opinion of a chl carrying a gun and storing it in his/her dorm/room?

Middle Age Russ wrote:PaJ,

Taking your son's comment at face value as you presented it, I can see where he is coming from. I, too, am not terribly comfortable with the idea that some of the folks around me may have guns (some of them lack maturity, respnsibility, sanity, good judgement, or other - and perhaps multiple -- attributes that cause my discomfort). That said, the folks who have CHLs generally don't cause me to feel this way. Persons with CHL have passed a background check, they have been informed of the laws surrounding carrying a concealed firearm in the state of Texas and they have demonstrated a modicum of proficiency in running their gun to their instructor. Further, statistics cited by Charles and others here show that license holders are far less apt to commit crimes of any kind than the general populace. The question is not whether one is comfortable with all other students being armed, but whether one is comfortable with a given subset of them being armed.

Russ

I don't disagree for CHL holders and, as I've posted before, the number of those people would be low. I think the ability for them to retain control of their weapon could be an issue, allowing it to fall into others hands. If a CHL holder had no roommates, and only he and staff had access to that room, that's pretty secure. Just as much as apartments, most houses, etc. In my son's dorm, he has 3 suite mates, and all four of them have visitors coming and going at all hours. A lockbox in the dorm room is a small deterrent. A check in desk or set of lock boxes may be an option, but that goes back to what started this thread and would require some level of non-concealment. And starts to sound like registration.

As I continue to process this, the gun owner in the dorm would need to be much more vigilant in keeping their weapon secure. In my home I can be much more relaxed than I would have to be in a dorm. If my "home" were a 12 x 15 room with lots of college students coming through (some of whom aren't my friends but are visiting my roommate or suite mate), I'd have challenges.

I do think there's a solution. And I don't think it needs to cost nearly $50 million.

I agree, PaJ, regarding the control issue. I was simply responding to your son's remark that he wouldn't be comfortable with some people having guns in the dorm. I can imagine that there might be several sources for this hypothetical discomfort, some of which are likely related to how the guns might be stored when not on the person of a CHL holder. There is much to consider given the woeful lack of firearms safety instruction to young folks (one of the reasons my wife and I conduct our county level 4-H Shooting Sports safety classes). CHL and its attendant responsibility are not for everyone. Likewise, not everyone would be authorized to have a gun on campus.

mojo84 wrote:

VMI77 wrote:

PaJ wrote:

v7a wrote:PaJ, are you saying that there's a threshold at which the goal of reducing suicide in an at-risk demographic becomes more important than protecting the individual's right to armed self-defense? If so, that's not any different than what many anti-gun people believe. They just have a different threshold and think that keeping a handgun in your own home is an unacceptable suicide risk (the "guns should be kept in a locker at the range" crowd).

Many students commit suicide after bullying. Should we restrict the 1st Amendment rights of students to reduce those suicides?

Truly, I'm struggling between what I believe our rights are and what my son tells me is a bad idea from what he sees. I mentioned to him that I always had guns in my dorm room for hunting or whatever. His response was, "from what I see, I wouldn't be comfortable with some people having guns in the dorm."

Prior to yesterday's discussion, I was 100% for any CHL holder to carry on campus (dorm or otherwise). When he made his comments, I even thought that this sounded like "anti" influence, which is why I asked other "well what about in this case?" kind of questions. But when he boiled it down to carrying on campus is fine and should happen. But from what he sees while living in the dorms, he thinks that would be a bad idea, it gives me reason to more deeply explore my position. How do you monitor it? Do they leave it in cars? I'm not sure. Concealed anytime anywhere is much easier for sure. And maybe his thoughts are influenced by others. Once implemented, maybe his fears/concerns are unfounded (like many other 'anti' fears of the wild west, etc).

Or maybe I need to get him out of the dorms because it's full of unstable people.

Today's college students are not the college students of yesteryear. Cost and admissions policies used to limit who went to college to mostly serious students. You either had to have parents who could afford to pay, be willing to work a job to pay your own way, or demonstrate unusual academic achievement and earn a scholarship. The ubiquitous student loan program and lowering of academic standards has put many many "students" in college who really don't belong there because they lack either the maturity, the intelligence, or both.

I had one son at A&M and one at UT Austin in the past few years. Both were shocked by the all around ignorance and stupidity of the majority of students. Most shocking to them was the conduct of the female students. That's the fault of me and their mother I suppose, bringing them up to expect more maturity, sobriety, and propriety from young females than from young males.

And it's not just the dorms. My UT son lived in a dorm the first year (and was shocked by the sense of entitlement on display there) and an off campus apartment the rest of the time, but the apartments were close to campus and the residents were mostly students, and their behavior wasn't any better and probably worse than behavior in the dorm.

Soooo, what's your opinion of a chl carrying a gun and storing it in his/her dorm/room?

A chl is a chl. In his/her room, stored properly, I don't have a problem with it. Honestly, I don't see the legal basis for drawing a distinction between one chl and another, or one living space or another, though the maturity and intelligence of many of today's college students does give me pause. In a room shared with someone not qualified to be a chl, not a chl....younger and immature....proper security and storage becomes a more significant issue, but again, that is the responsibility of the chl. However, assuming it is allowed, if just one chl is careless and another student obtains his gun and either uses it in a criminal act or has an accident with it, or is careless and has an accident with it himself, I suspect that would be the end of guns in dorms. I'm not endorsing that result, but I do think that is what the politics will dictate.

I would think that is you aren't in your dorm room, the handgun won't either...but that's just me...

That assumes (s)he always carries. Dont statistics of chl holders indicate that most CHLs only carry part time?

PaJ wrote:That assumes (s)he always carries. Dont statistics of chl holders indicate that most CHLs only carry part time?

I do not know the stats, but I know that only two thing make me "part time":

• gun-free zones
• international travel

Given that this would reduce the first of these, I think this would help, not hurt.

Removing ones ability to exist in college based on the possible actions of others seems absurd to me. Their are millions of people in this country and on this planet that I don't want carrying firearms but I'm not about to give up mine or disarm my family members in an attempt to remove theirs or make one feel safe. We the People are not going to be able to protect every single human in the United States from violence. What we can do is give every single human the unrestricted ability to live amongst each other with a fair chance of survival. If evil didn't exist we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I don't want to see any ones family members disarmed and defenseless because the neighbors are immature morons with a propensity towards destruction and mayhem. I want them well armed with a fair chance of survival. I also don't agree with the magical age of 21 years for the right to be. Who knows maybe someday soon all Americans will be well armed, everywhere they are.

I just heard the best reason why students should not be allowed to carry on campus. A leader of a college girls group said "if Colleges allowed Co-eds to carry guns then they would have to allow rapists to carry guns, and that would not help the co-eds"!!!

howdy wrote:I just heard the best reason why students should not be allowed to carry on campus. A leader of a college girls group said "if Colleges allowed Co-eds to carry guns then they would have to allow rapists to carry guns, and that would not help the co-eds"!!!

It might be the same story....but the same "group" said that allowing CC will also allow assailants to bring weapons on campus.....

....think about that for a moment.....

Jason K wrote:

howdy wrote:I just heard the best reason why students should not be allowed to carry on campus. A leader of a college girls group said "if Colleges allowed Co-eds to carry guns then they would have to allow rapists to carry guns, and that would not help the co-eds"!!!

It might be the same story....but the same "group" said that allowing CC will also allow assailants to bring weapons on campus.....

....think about that for a moment.....

How can you argue with that logic. You just have to shake your head and walk off. It would do no good to reply.

Through all of this discussion about securing handguns in the dorms for 21yr old chl holders, it occurs to me that we've inadvertently taken the position that the anti-gunners have. We are placing the responsibility of potential bad acts of non-carriers on the shoulders of the carrier. Granted, it's been more than a few years since I've lived in a college dorm. But I do recall there being a sort of mutual trust amongst roommates and suitemates. It was understood that each other's stuff was off limits unless we ask first. And we all made sure that our visitors didn't go snooping through ours or our roommates stuff. And this was the case even when when we had floor parties - which were quite common at LSU in the early 90s.

So my solution to this "problem" would be to require the chl that lives in the dorms provide some sort of secure storage for their own firearm(s). Should they find themselves rooming with untrustworthy mates, they be granted an express roommate change process to alleviate the possibility of a bad situation getting worse. And it doesn't put the chl in the position of having to be responsible for the behavior of other people.

Jason K wrote:

howdy wrote:I just heard the best reason why students should not be allowed to carry on campus. A leader of a college girls group said "if Colleges allowed Co-eds to carry guns then they would have to allow rapists to carry guns, and that would not help the co-eds"!!!

It might be the same story....but the same "group" said that allowing CC will also allow assailants to bring weapons on campus.....

....think about that for a moment.....

If breathing were not an involuntary action, some people would literally die of stupidity.

Chas.

TexasCajun wrote:Through all of this discussion about securing handguns in the dorms for 21yr old chl holders, it occurs to me that we've inadvertently taken the position that the anti-gunners have. We are placing the responsibility of potential bad acts of non-carriers on the shoulders of the carrier. Granted, it's been more than a few years since I've lived in a college dorm. But I do recall there being a sort of mutual trust amongst roommates and suitemates. It was understood that each other's stuff was off limits unless we ask first. And we all made sure that our visitors didn't go snooping through ours or our roommates stuff. And this was the case even when when we had floor parties - which were quite common at LSU in the early 90s.

So my solution to this "problem" would be to require the chl that lives in the dorms provide some sort of secure storage for their own firearm(s). Should they find themselves rooming with untrustworthy mates, they be granted an express roommate change process to alleviate the possibility of a bad situation getting worse. And it doesn't put the chl in the position of having to be responsible for the behavior of other people.

I don't think "we've" done what you suggest. There are very few here that seem to think not allowing chl on campus or chl's to not store their guns in their dorm rooms in lock boxes is the right way to go.