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A friend I know was a CIA agent in South Africa in the 70s I believe. He had two riot experiences. One time a 12ga persuaded the mob to let him pass. The last time a mob charged his home. He shot and killed the lead attacker. Fortunately, the mob was not armed with firearms so they broke off and chose a softer target. He said the aftermath of the riots with bodies of people being killed with the lethal neckties were a testimate of how cruel people can be.

AndyC wrote:I got caught in a riot of mineworkers in Johannesburg once while in my car - I rolled my window down, smiled and stuck my arm in the air with a clenched fist out the window while shouting 'Viva! Vivia!'

What can I tell you, it worked.

Actually, I have zero problem believing that could work if the situation allowed it. Identifying your sympathies with that of the crowd could be an effective strategy, but I wouldn't want to depend on it as my only strategy. As an elderly white male Santa Claus look-alike, an angry mob of mostly young and exclusively non-white people might not be inclined to listen to hear what I was shouting. Crowds like that are LOUD, and very few of them are actually listening to anything except their own inner anger. They might easily take my raised fist out the window as a challenge rather than agreement.

But.....that's another tool to file away in the toolbox in the event that it becomes a viable option.

Riot? Get out of there very quick.
What I am afraid of is getting ambushed by armed Militia or gangsters.
Plan as I see it
1) Try to get out of there ASAP
2) Return fire while doing 1) if and only if it is needed
3) Conserve ammo, make them count
4) Do not get yourself cornered. Always have an escape route planned.

Beiruty wrote:Riot? Get out of there very quick.
What I am afraid of is getting ambushed by armed Militia or gangsters.
Plan as I see it
1) Try to get out of there ASAP
2) Return fire while doing 1) if and only if it is needed
3) Conserve ammo, make them count
4) Do not get yourself cornered. Always have an escape route planned.

Stay Calm. Run Forrest Run!

AndyC wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:

AndyC wrote:I got caught in a riot of mineworkers in Johannesburg once while in my car - I rolled my window down, smiled and stuck my arm in the air with a clenched fist out the window while shouting 'Viva! Viva!'

What can I tell you, it worked.

Actually, I have zero problem believing that could work if the situation allowed it. Identifying your sympathies with that of the crowd could be an effective strategy, but I wouldn't want to depend on it as my only strategy. As an elderly white male Santa Claus look-alike, an angry mob of mostly young and exclusively non-white people might not be inclined to listen to hear what I was shouting. Crowds like that are LOUD, and very few of them are actually listening to anything except their own inner anger. They might easily take my raised fist out the window as a challenge rather than agreement.

But.....that's another tool to file away in the toolbox in the event that it becomes a viable option.

Smiling at that moment was the hardest thing I think I've ever had to do but I believe that both that and the fist-pumping - as they were doing - was what sold it; I was out of all other options. Frightening moment.

I will remember this and pack it away in my brain and hope I never need it.

That's why I drive a Volvo with a BERNIE sticker.

I can't help but think there would be that little voice in the back of my head saying "So, this is how it happens". All the other voices would be say Run! Run! Make every shot count while you RUN! Run!

WildBill wrote:Get out of Dodge, ASAP!

Yes, as long as you don't get out of the Dodge.

Think about it from a legal standpoint. You are in fear for your life, but plowing through a crowd at high speed would be hard to justify. The people who actually threatened you are behind you. Now you are running people down that didn't threaten you and might just be trying to get out of the way. This may be a mob, but it isn't all of one mind. It is NOT 10,000 people with murder on their minds. That would be an army and look completely different. IMO, if you find yourself surrounded, move forward at a steady pace. 1st gear is slow enough people can get out of your way, you don't have to stop, and you don't have to worry about getting stuck on a pile of bodies as you attempt to run over people who didn't threaten you. Also, first gear has the most power to push people or stuff out of the way.

Running over people in a crowd at speed will just damage your vehicle and get it high centered, stuck, or inoperable.

As for being on foot, in all likelihood only a handful of people up front are actually threatening you. Maybe there are only a few and everyone is following along with the mob. If you shoot the one or two that are most threatening, you have a good chance of getting clear. No one in the mob wants to be the one up front who gets shot first. Shoot when needed, conserve your ammo.

We all have this picture in our minds of what we think it will be like, but you can almost guarantee it won't be what you imagine. Most of the bad things you hear about were done by a relative few individuals with most standing around watching. Anarchy is what is happening, not warfare.

It is always important to remember that you might be called on to account for you actions in court. Plan accordingly.

I have been in a riot situation, but not of the type imagined in this thread.
It was a long time ago and it was the police versus protesters and/or students.
So, if you were a student, you were, by definition, the bad guy,

It didn't matter if you were doing anything illegal or just standing around watching.
You would still get tear gassed and clubbed if you happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.
In this situation there is nothing to be gained by staying.
Therefore my advice is to leave ASAP.

If you want to read about it here is a link: http://www.islavista.org/riot123.html
From what I remember the descriptions are quite accurate.

Lt. Col. Hal Moore: "Broken Arrow, Broken Arrow"

Capt. Harris: "For the record, it's my call. Dump everything you've got left on my pos. I say again, expend all remaining in my perimeter."

The Annoyed Man wrote:That's what insurance is for.

Well.....that would depend mightily on the policy. Guarantee you that a lot of businesses went for the cheaper named-perils policies, expecting nothing worse than the typical stuff like storms, fire, burglars and stick-ups, never thinking in their wildest nightmares that an armed insurrection would go down right on their doorstep. So for some folks, letting their business fall to the terrorists was not an option - utter ruination if it did. They may as well be dead from their point of view. Bet more than a few businesses in certain areas have re-thought the level of their insurance coverage by now - if they're smart.

Bolton Strid wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:That's what insurance is for.

Well.....that would depend mightily on the policy. Guarantee you that a lot of businesses went for the cheaper named-perils policies, expecting nothing worse than the typical stuff like storms, fire, burglars and stick-ups, never thinking in their wildest nightmares that an armed insurrection would go down right on their doorstep. So for some folks, letting their business fall to the terrorists was not an option - utter ruination if it did. They may as well be dead from their point of view. Bet more than a few businesses in certain areas have re-thought the level of their insurance coverage by now - if they're smart.

It is more likely that businesses would have been subject to some kind of (possibly illegal) "red-lining" in that area - which had been an area of higher crime rates for a very long time - in which they paid a higher rate for the same coverage than another similar business would pay for that coverage in some other part of town........and therefore, they bought lesser policies because the one they knew they needed cost too much.

Even so, for me personally, financial ruin is not worse than physical death, and life is worth preserving, even if it means losing everything I own. It's because I follow the biological imperative to survive. Only humans attach greater value to things than they do to themselves. Isn't that primarily why we carry guns? To protect our physical selves?

And the state of California is very generous with victim assistance funds, etc. Insurance companies may view a riot as an act of God, but the state still views them as a crime, and crimes have victims. The guys who stayed on top of their stores, firing into crowds of rioters, were brave.......but foolish. Never the less, the California gun community - of which I was a part at the time - viewed them as heros. I understand why. I just disagree that it was the smart thing to do. Morally justifiable, probably. The smart thing to do? Probably not.

Bolton Strid wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:That's what insurance is for.

Well.....that would depend mightily on the policy. Guarantee you that a lot of businesses went for the cheaper named-perils policies, expecting nothing worse than the typical stuff like storms, fire, burglars and stick-ups, never thinking in their wildest nightmares that an armed insurrection would go down right on their doorstep. So for some folks, letting their business fall to the terrorists was not an option - utter ruination if it did. They may as well be dead from their point of view. Bet more than a few businesses in certain areas have re-thought the level of their insurance coverage by now - if they're smart.

Most business policies in Texas will cover theft, vandalism, and burglaries. I would think you could argue that within a riot all of these happen. You get a business policy to cover your business property as well as liability reasons. The majority of the Premium comes from business property, but you are probably right small businesses typically cannot afford higher premiums.

Within the context of this threat I would get out of there and cut my losses than risk the lives of my family, self, and/or employees.