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230 grain +P .45 ACP, 147 grain 357 Sig, and 200 grain 10mm and .40 S&W all have similar momentum at the muzzle. The .45 and. 40 have the advantage of generating most of that from a 4" barrel. While the 10mm and 357 Sig need a 5 or 5.5" barrel, they generate markedly higher energy and barrier penetration when paired with a longer barrel. The 10mm and 357 Sig also require handloading to perform well, as factory loads for both calibers leave a lot of performance on the table.

I think that the search for a single universal best is likely to end inconclusively, but we have several options that fill different roles.

Rob Leatham said something to the effect of- while 9mm may be adequate, it was not equivalent, so don't kid yourselves.

He didn't harbor any ill will towards those that carry 9mm, just as none the people in this thread that prefer 45acp have. Most of us have said we carry 9mm at times but choose 45 when attire and activity allow...

I'm good for another few months now. Any other horses we can swing a bat at???

WTR wrote:

LeonCarr wrote:Rob Leatham has probably put more ammunition downrange than everybody on this forum combined.

With that being said, if there is suddenly an epidemic of human beings being attacked by Pepper Poppers, I will switch back to a .45.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

I say carry the platform and caliber which makes you feel warm and fuzzy. However, what does the amount of ammo Rob has put down range for practice and competition on paper or steel have anything to do with the lethality of a particular caliber?

It has nothing to do with the lethality of a particular caliber, that is why I mentioned being attacked by Pepper Poppers and switching to the .45. I was saying that even though he has sent probably millions of bullets downrange, just because he demonstrated that a .45 can knockdown a Pepper Popper "better" than the 9mm does not mean that it can stop a human better. I wont even get into how those Pepper Poppers can be adjusted/calibrated with a bolt at the bottom of the popper and are calibrated before a match to fall to a 9mm.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

flechero wrote:Rob Leatham said something to the effect of- while 9mm may be adequate, it was not equivalent, so don't kid yourselves.

He didn't harbor any ill will towards those that carry 9mm, just as none the people in this thread that prefer 45acp have. Most of us have said we carry 9mm at times but choose 45 when attire and activity allow...

I'm good for another few months now. Any other horses we can swing a bat at???

Poor hits with a pistol caliber won't incapacitate someone. Terminal performance is almost exclusively a function of shot placement once a very low threshold of energy and momentum are reached. I carry a P232 .380 ACP +P with 90 grain XTPs because they are sufficient if I do my part. A weak .380 load from a 2.5" barrel is not sufficient.

LeonCarr wrote:

WTR wrote:

LeonCarr wrote:Rob Leatham has probably put more ammunition downrange than everybody on this forum combined.

With that being said, if there is suddenly an epidemic of human beings being attacked by Pepper Poppers, I will switch back to a .45.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

I say carry the platform and caliber which makes you feel warm and fuzzy. However, what does the amount of ammo Rob has put down range for practice and competition on paper or steel have anything to do with the lethality of a particular caliber?

It has nothing to do with the lethality of a particular caliber, that is why I mentioned being attacked by Pepper Poppers and switching to the .45. I was saying that even though he has sent probably millions of bullets downrange, just because he demonstrated that a .45 can knockdown a Pepper Popper "better" than the 9mm does not mean that it can stop a human better. I wont even get into how those Pepper Poppers can be adjusted/calibrated with a bolt at the bottom of the popper and are calibrated before a match to fall to a 9mm.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

If the amount of ammo sent down range by Leathum has nothing to do with this conversation, why mention it.

WTR wrote:

LeonCarr wrote:

WTR wrote:

LeonCarr wrote:Rob Leatham has probably put more ammunition downrange than everybody on this forum combined.

With that being said, if there is suddenly an epidemic of human beings being attacked by Pepper Poppers, I will switch back to a .45.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

I say carry the platform and caliber which makes you feel warm and fuzzy. However, what does the amount of ammo Rob has put down range for practice and competition on paper or steel have anything to do with the lethality of a particular caliber?

It has nothing to do with the lethality of a particular caliber, that is why I mentioned being attacked by Pepper Poppers and switching to the .45. I was saying that even though he has sent probably millions of bullets downrange, just because he demonstrated that a .45 can knockdown a Pepper Popper "better" than the 9mm does not mean that it can stop a human better. I wont even get into how those Pepper Poppers can be adjusted/calibrated with a bolt at the bottom of the popper and are calibrated before a match to fall to a 9mm.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

If the amount of ammo sent down range by Leathum has nothing to do with this conversation, why mention it.

Fixed.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Yankee Marshall on Youtube calls the caliber "45 AARP", which is good for a chuckle.

That being said, I recently purchased my first 45 ACP/1911 and love the caliber and platform.

warnmar10 wrote:Like most things the answer is found on YouTube

Maybe not for long given their disdain for the 1st and 2nd Ammendments.

This again?


Shot placement still king!

Penetration is still queen!

Everything else is still just angels dancing on the heads of pins!

Bad shot placement results in more risks than over penetration!

Why do people complain about this argument appearing "again" while happily posting their own opinion/judgement?

MechAg94 wrote:Why do people complain about this argument appearing "again" while happily posting their own opinion/judgement?

Because they like to argue. But they don't want to admit that they like to argue.

Texian wrote:This again?


Shot placement still king!

Penetration is still queen!

Everything else is still just angels dancing on the heads of pins!

Bad shot placement results in more risks than over penetration!

Which is why a 12 gauge shot shell (with birdshot) is the only correct answer!

Soccerdad1995 wrote:I "don't want to be shot" with anything, not even a rock from a slingshot.

Hear, hear. You and me both.

MechAg94 wrote:Why do people complain about this argument appearing "again" while happily posting their own opinion/judgement?

Several reasons perhaps:

1. Some members of internet forums post to every thread, regardless. Perhaps it's about personal post count, desire for attention, ego, who knows.

2. There are more "experts" on internet forums than there are in the actual field being discussed. As an example, I would venture to guess that 99% of those on LTC type forums have never had to "use" a firearm in self defense, but that does not stop them from telling others the "best way" to do it.

3. It would probably be pretty boring if everyone posted what they actually "knew" rather than just rendering an opinion.

MaduroBU wrote:

flechero wrote:Rob Leatham said something to the effect of- while 9mm may be adequate, it was not equivalent, so don't kid yourselves.

He didn't harbor any ill will towards those that carry 9mm, just as none the people in this thread that prefer 45acp have. Most of us have said we carry 9mm at times but choose 45 when attire and activity allow...

I'm good for another few months now. Any other horses we can swing a bat at???

Poor hits with a pistol caliber won't incapacitate someone. Terminal performance is almost exclusively a function of shot placement once a very low threshold of energy and momentum are reached. I carry a P232 .380 ACP +P with 90 grain XTPs because they are sufficient if I do my part. A weak .380 load from a 2.5" barrel is not sufficient.

If shot placement was the over-riding factor as you suggest, then why not carry 22LR? You get the bonus of maximum capacity too.