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marksiwel wrote:

frazzled wrote:

marksiwel wrote:

driver8 wrote:This is not Switzerland. The Obamas , Pelosis, Reids, etc make no secret about their anti-gun views or their intentions. From what I've heard recently about Switzerland their gun rights are far from ideal.

This not Switzerland, this is America, why not borrow what works from and leave what doesnt, and make a system that will be the envy of the rest of the world?

I would be ok with that. I don't think, no I know, the current bunch in Washington are not up to that task.

Vote em out and bring in those that do.

We still have a Right leaning SCOTUS (kinda), there are Still Republicans in both houses, things can still get done, as long as people dont do this bone headed gridlock nonsense. John McCain got ALOT done because he was willing to reach across the aisle.
We have a Health care bill that says you have to have insurance, and it has to meet a very low set of basics. If this is socialism then we've had it since the 1940s.
So, it passed, man up and make it better.

The fact is, though, it's unconstitutional. The US Government has just, for the first time, required everyone in this country to purchase a product or service as a price of residency here. In effect, this punishes every US resident (note I didn't say US citizen because it applies to everyone who pays taxes since the IRS will be the enforcement arm - oh, for that matter, illegal aliens who don't pay income taxes don't have to pay in but do receive the benefits) by making a refusal to purchase a product or service a crime.

This is about the erosion of our liberty and, yes, it's been being eroded for quite some time now - ever since the New Deal - but this is the straw that broke the camel's back. I, as a supposed free US citizen, am no longer allowed to decide for myself what kind of health insurance I wish to purchase, indeed whether or not to purchase any at all. The government now makes the decision for me as to what is acceptable and is not acceptable, and if I choose a plan that, in any month of a calendar year, does not meet the minimum standard set by an unelected government bureaucrat in the Dept of Health and Human Services, the IRS can fine me and, eventually if I don't pay the fine, either withhold any tax refund I may get or put a lien on my home. That's not liberty, my friend, that's tyranny, and if you think otherwise then you're naive.

Any time the government can use the power of the State to bend individuals to its will, any argument that we live in a "free society" immediately become false.

We threw off the shackles of European style government 234 years ago. I don't see why we would want to move to a European style of government now. James Madison is surely turning over in his grave.

Wow, that was well said.

You could make the same argument about Car Insurance.
Or that your lack of Health Insurance effects my Health Insurance.
But as for it being constitutional, you may have a valid point. I expect a Scotus Ruling on it down the pipe, now that is something I look forward to.

marksiwel wrote:You could make the same argument about Car Insurance.
Or that your lack of Health Insurance effects my Health Insurance.
But as for it being constitutional, you may have a valid point. I expect a Scotus Ruling on it down the pipe, now that is something I look forward to.

The difference, though, is that people are not required to own cars. They can ride a bike, the bus, hire a taxi or walk. But with this new bill, you are required to buy health insurance just by your mere existence.

True, more people buying health insurance would make the costs go down, but there are other (more constitutional) ways to bring costs down. Like anti-trust laws. Insurance companies cannot sell across state lines, which means that in most states, one or two companies basically have a monopoly. This has resulted in higher prices and lower quality of service to the consumer. If the government broke down that wall (just like they have with lots of other types of business), there would be more competition, resulting in better options and lower prices for us folks.

Nobody ever made me buy car insurance

driver8 wrote:Nobody ever made me buy car insurance

If you drive in Texas you do.

"Texas law requires you to have auto liability insurance. If you drive in Texas, you must show that you can pay for accidents you cause. Most Texas drivers do this by buying auto liability insurance. The statutory minimum limits of liability insurance in Texas are:

Bodily Injury
- $25,000 for the death or injury of any one person, any one accident
- $50,000 for all persons in any one accident
Property Damage
- $25,000 for any one accident"

PSLOwner wrote:

driver8 wrote:Nobody ever made me buy car insurance

If you drive in Texas you do.

"Texas law requires you to have auto liability insurance. If you drive in Texas, you must show that you can pay for accidents you cause. Most Texas drivers do this by buying auto liability insurance. The statutory minimum limits of liability insurance in Texas are:

Bodily Injury
- $25,000 for the death or injury of any one person, any one accident
- $50,000 for all persons in any one accident
Property Damage
- $25,000 for any one accident"

And supreme court ruling have stated that you have a "Right" to travel.

marksiwel wrote:

PSLOwner wrote:

driver8 wrote:Nobody ever made me buy car insurance

If you drive in Texas you do.

"Texas law requires you to have auto liability insurance. If you drive in Texas, you must show that you can pay for accidents you cause. Most Texas drivers do this by buying auto liability insurance. The statutory minimum limits of liability insurance in Texas are:

Bodily Injury
- $25,000 for the death or injury of any one person, any one accident
- $50,000 for all persons in any one accident
Property Damage
- $25,000 for any one accident"

And supreme court ruling have stated that you have a "Right" to travel.

Just not through East St. Louis at night.......

Is someone making you drive?

driver8 wrote:Is someone making you drive?

I do have a right to travel.

Also that Right is threatened everytime I board a plane.
Wheres the outcry?

Driving a car is not a right. It is also not manditory, neither is car insurance.

PSLOwner wrote:

driver8 wrote:Nobody ever made me buy car insurance

If you drive in Texas you do.

"Texas law requires you to have auto liability insurance. If you drive in Texas, you must show that you can pay for accidents you cause. Most Texas drivers do this by buying auto liability insurance. The statutory minimum limits of liability insurance in Texas are:

Bodily Injury
- $25,000 for the death or injury of any one person, any one accident
- $50,000 for all persons in any one accident
Property Damage
- $25,000 for any one accident"

The key word in there being "MOST." You are not truly required to have auto liability insurance, all you have to do is prove financial responsibility, which you might do by establishing a trust fund, or just having a big enough bank account. It is not unusual for companies with large fleets of vehicles to "self insure" and an individual could do the same.

Similarly Mark's example of us paying for roads for him to drive on. Just a couple of hundred years ago there were private roads all over the country, and you paid a toll to the owner to use the road. Public highways are funded by the public for public use, usually, or at least ideally, by subscription, such as license and registration fees. You do not need to have a license to own a car, nor to drive one, nor does your car have to be registered, as long as you are not using the shared, publicly funded, roads.

People are not required to own cars, nor are they required to have driver's licenses, but this legislation makes it a requirement to have health coverage, even if there is no chance that you will ever need it (admittedly unlikely, but I have known a couple of people who had LARGE and stable trust funds.)

This is a legislative attempt at a one size fits all solution to a suite of complex problems, and it is as misguided as any piece of legislation ever has been.

driver8 wrote:Driving a car is not a right. It is also not manditory, neither is car insurance.

I travel using a Car, I have a right to Travel. U.S. v Guest Shapiro v Thompson Chicago
Motor Coach v. Chicago
"The use of the highway for the purpose of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege, but a common fundamental right of which the public and individuals cannot rightfully be deprived." Chicago Motor Coach v. Chicago"
Look em up. I'm right

You have the right just take the bus and you won't need insurance to exercise it.

I thought this was a good article
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124562948992235831.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

By the way show where in the Constitution it says that Nasa, the Airforce, Immigration, the EPA, the FDA, or Eduction are Constitutional
Why should I pay to educate YOUR Kids? Or better yet cause this is Texas, why should I PAY for your kids to play football?