Cuffed & Stuffed Police Report

[chabouk]

We wear uni's with cargo pants pockets...In my right pocket I have "pocket" sized penal and traffic code. In my car I keep the Lexis, and a book published by CLEAR called "elements of an offense"

However, my evals so far have said I have an above average grasp of penal, traffic codes and ccp.

You and I have been trading quips, but I do want to make it clear that I don't consider you "the enemy". I believe you're doing a heckuva lot more to know the law than most do. Thank you for that. I hope you have a positive influence on your fellow officers.

AND - I want to add - I was a CHL holder LOOOOOOOOOOOONG before I was a LEO. I got my CHL in 2004. I was sworn in 2009. I'm green, but I have given myself to this line of work to be the best I can - learning all procedures and and as much code as I can.

I realize this. As I've said, I was a regular reader of this forum long before I started posting. I recall your excitement about going to the academy. There was a hint earlier in this thread that you had that "academy attitude", and I have to say I believe there's some truth in that. You're a rookie: it's understandable if you're still hyped up on what was drilled into you. I hope you will let your fervor for the law as written, and your seemingly common sense approach, continue to guide you in your career.

I think the best compliment that I can pay you is that I don't think you're have responded the same way to the handog 911 call. You've said you'd stack the odds in your favor, but after the initial approach, I don't think you'd have actually cuffed, stuffed, and charged him.

I think that, because I think you're a fundamentally decent human being. I also think you're still under the rush of being a newly-minted cop, struggling with the overwhelming whirlpool of being a "peace officer" while enforcing laws that aren't always just, and treating the public fairly while thinking you're at risk with every encounter. It's a big mind-twist. The strong survive it, and become principled like srothstein. The weak flush out quickly to become Paul Blart. The majority lie somewhere in between, doing what they can to get by. I hope you never "settle" for that.


Now, if you'll indulge me just a moment for an example of "academy attitude":

gigag04 wrote:

Most of us can still be professional and even polite - but I WILL be going home at the end of my shift with same number of holes that I came on with.

Pick that up at the academy?

Even if you let your guard down ...statistics show you have an excellent chance of going home each day, and with the same number of holes. Unless you are SWAT or routinely go on drug raids, you really have little to fear of the average citizen or motorist.

Statistics show you don't need to carry a gun everywhere you go...yet you do.

Statistics show that being a police officer barely cracks the top 10 of "most dangerous professions".

Pause for a moment before responding.

I do not say that police work is without danger. Danger is inherent when you confront dangerous circumstances. Doesn't matter if you're a commercial fisherman (5 times the death rate of police) or logger (4 times the death rate of police): danger is danger. The difference in police work is that your attitude and approach can result in a huge difference in the danger you face, while other professions' danger is inherent no matter what their attitude or interpersonal skills are.

I wish you well. I hope for your safety. I trust you will treat the citizens you encounter in the course of your job with the same courtesy you exhibit here. I really hope, for your own safety and professional development, that any traces of "academy attitude" evaporate quickly.

As the old saying goes, "Be unfailingly polite, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet." Don't lose the "polite" aspect while looking out for your own safety.

[gigag04]

I'm still unsure of where the academy attitude is being displayed - there are many on this forum that practice tactics on a daily basis to keep them alive. Earlier when I quoted the "extreme" response it was not to endorse the usage of that term. With +/- 11 officers responding it was probably toned out as a hot call where everyone free goes.

I don't feel like officers responding with weapons drawn is unreasonable in this situation. While, as some here have noted, on a day to day basis, the odds are low of facing a lethal confrontation regularly, it is still in the sphere of the possible - and so many choose to treat every encounter with caution because of it. Suicide by cop is rare - but still extremely dangerous.

It's funny, it seems like everyone is an expert on how cops should do their jobs, yet so few decide to actually do it. We could armchair quarterback it all day long, but I still say that we aren't getting the full run down of what happened on that day. I think details are being left out. We have yet to see 18 pages of information...

As long some here will continue to comment about suing and what not without knowing what happened from a sworn report, I'll continue to offer insight as to why it might not be as unreasonable as some here might think. You can feel free to disagree, but please don't discount the information due to how recently I obtained it - it is still comes from someone who is been in a few similar situations (the number grows everyday).

It's easy to criticize the actions of cops when we weren't there and go by one telling of the story. I also know how little I actually knew about the job of LEOs before becoming one - if I can help debunk, challenge or explain some things - sweet! (I don't know it all, unfortunately...it make things easier for sure)


Also - I hope you guys don't pull punches because you're afraid you'll offend me. I don't cry myself to sleep based on what people on the CHL forum say about me, or LEOs in general (I have other reasons for that....jk). If someone has a beef/comment/question/concern lets discuss it. I'm on this thing a ton because of some other projects that are computer based (stocks etc) that I work with on my days off...

[G26ster]

** PRINTED WHILE EVENT IN PROGRESS**
WARNING- THE FOLLOWING IS A TCIC CONCEALED HANDGUN LICENSE. THE EXISTANCE OF THIS RECORD IS AN INDICATOR THAT THE SUBJECT HAS BEEN LICENSED TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN UNDER TEXAS LAW AND NO ACTION IS REQUIRED.
Did this show up on the MDT, or was it a radio response, while the cop was in the act of arresting Handog?

I too am interested in this.

Will someone knowledgeable please answer this question? I think it's important to know.

[gigag04]

** PRINTED WHILE EVENT IN PROGRESS**
WARNING- THE FOLLOWING IS A TCIC CONCEALED HANDGUN LICENSE. THE EXISTANCE OF THIS RECORD IS AN INDICATOR THAT THE SUBJECT HAS BEEN LICENSED TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN UNDER TEXAS LAW AND NO ACTION IS REQUIRED.
Did this show up on the MDT, or was it a radio response, while the cop was in the act of arresting Handog?

I too am interested in this.

Will someone knowledgeable please answer this question? I think it's important to know.

I doubt in a situation like that he was run over the MDT - I don't even do it on a traffic stop. If he was ran over radio, which he probably was, dispatch will give the DL return (eligible out of city, state, no TCIC/NCIC warrants, no local warrants) and then at the end they'll say "and is showing to have a valid CHL."

[handog]

[quote="gigag04"] I think details are being left out. We have yet to see 18 pages of information...





If there are incriminating details in the 18 pages then why did the judge immediately dismiss it and let me out WITHOUT bail? Why did the County attorney toss it out so quickly? Why was my CHL returned without question?

The answer is that NO CRIME WAS COMMITED but you will never admit it!

OK, let's say you're gut feeling is right and in the 18 pages there was a crime committed. Are you saying they let a criminal walk? Wouldn’t that be a dereliction of duty?


With +/- 11 officers responding it was probably toned out as a hot call where everyone free goes.

This demonstrates poor communication between the 911 operator and the police /dispatcher. The 911 operator asked if I had a badge. Reasonable question but how about is he threatening? Does he seem upset? This may have prevented the overreaction. And what about NO ACTION REQUIRED? They didn’t get the message in time? I think there is room for improvement.

[neilp]

Gig' I think you must understand that some here will, no doubt, have some context for their concerns. Williamson County and RRPD especially are known for an "arrest 'em now worry about it later " attitude. I lived in RR for about 12 years and while most LEO contact was not of concern, a couple of times they stepped over the line. One of those interactions was with the then chief of RRPD and I will not state my opinion of that man as it would break forum rules.

Given my first hand experience of the RRPD's former leadership I have no doubt that some of that attitude will survive in the ranks to this day.

As an LEO I would have thought you would want other LEOs to follow the highest standards in executing their duties as this will make your job as a fellow LEO easier. I would hope that every LEO would be concerned over an arrest that turns out to be unwarranted. Not to mention the waste of resources and court time etc.

[gigag04]

I haven't said that you were guilty and got off. I'm just curious what the exact events that led to your arrest - which will be contained in the probable cause statement that got sent to the CA's office.

[flintknapper]

gigag04 wrote:

Statistics show you don't need to carry a gun everywhere you go...yet you do.

No, actually.....I don't, I carry whenever I feel it is appropriate...I am not 24/7. Also, my weapon (handgun) is my LAST layer of defense....not my solution to every problem.

I've been on the streets less than a year, and I've been in multiple fights, used weapons against people, had "normal" contacts turn south in the blink of an eye.... Less than a year on the streets.

Is this typical for first year officers in your city (multiple fights, etc)? Just curious.

Please don't preach to me about officer safety...

I am not preaching to you, it would do little good anyway. I think your position concerning officer safety is unmovable.

Besides....I want you to be safe too, just not at the expense of a citizens rights (not saying YOU do that).

if you want to take up some personal urination contest with me, please do so over PM's....or anywhere other than a public forum.

I have no such desire. However, you cause me to respond in "public" when you post in "public" admonishing ME to take it to PM. If you have something to say to me...that you would not like say HERE...then feel to PM me, we can discuss it.

I haven't violated anyones rights...

Nor....have I said or inferred that YOU have. Some LEO do....and that is what I am speaking to, got it?

you taking out some sort of aggression on me is inappropriate and misplaced.

It simply hasn't happened friend, but I have to wonder if this same perception (being picked on/singled out) could possibly get carried over onto the street.

I wish you the best and hope you have a long and successful career.

Flint.

[handog]

I haven't said that you were guilty and got off. I'm just curious what the exact events that led to your arrest - which will be contained in the probable cause statement that got sent to the CA's office.

I have a sworn affidavit with a signature from the arresting officer. I think that's what you’re after. As I said, the witness says I reached for my wallet and exposed the handgun.
That was his probable cause.
Remember it was in an inside the waistband holster. Then it says "Since the defendant intentionally failed to conceal his handgun I placed him under arrest."
Only an idiot (not you) would consider that intentional. If I wanted everyone to see it why would I bother tucking it inside my waistband?
As far as the exact events..It's nothing that I have not described here already. It describes being dispatched, identifying the suspect and making the arrest.

[glbedd53]

Unlike some of you, I have no trouble believing that RRPD officers mishandled this. They do have that reputation and it reaches pretty far. I've heard of it and I live south of Houston. Round Rock is one of the 3 or 4 cities that I drive differently than I do in most places, along with Martindale, and Calvert. Cities that have reputations as speed traps or whatever didn't get that way by accident, it's a problem in the PD or something else in the city govt. I wouldn't say that all or even most LEO's are guilty of this but I will say that some PD's are rotten to the core.

[Mike1951]

Handog, if I had the original, I'd be happy to scan the 18 pages into a PDF file. We can probably find a site where we can post it.

Until that happens, we will continue to read gigag04's opinions that all LEO's are perfect and that no officer can ever be wrong.

[driver8]

Handog can I ask what your age is, not that it's relevent to anything, just curious for some reason.

[driver8]

I don't mean to be negative about gigag04 because I think he is sincere and most likely a well intentioned cop but it seems he comes off a little like LEO's are right until proven wrong and the rest of us are wrong until proven right. Statistically maybe that's right but statistically i think CHL holders are more law abiding than the population.

[03Lightningrocks]

It is fairly obvious the RR PD over reacted in this situation. I go back to what I have heard many a police officer say. Once they decide you are going to be arrested, nothing will change their minds... not even obvious evidence they are wrong. These Key Stone cops made a spectical of themselves. There was no way they would suffer the humiliation of admitting they were wrong on the spot. It was more comfortable for them to make an illegal arrest and coach the written statement from the complainant. The next trick was for officer deputy dawg to lie and say the word intentional in his report. He knew darned good and well it was not intentional but he lied and wrote it down so he could show he had good intentions. The high fiving behavior shows the atitude of this law enforcement group and it is sad. I can't for the life of me figure out why any officer would defend actions like this from any department. If a person can justify behavior like this from law enforcement, they can justify anything. What next? Arrest a grand mother because she failed to use a cross walk? Why not???? It is just as wrong. As a citizen and CHL holder, I am seriously concerned with Jack Booted law enforcement techniques such as these. I am not saying all law enforcement is bad... JUST these officers and their Chief for allowing such behavior.

This is what I will believe until I see written evidence to the contrary.

[wgoforth]

I do think that the report placed on here might help us all dissect and figure it all out, and could prove helpful to us to know the psych of an arresting officer, to know what to avoid, prepare for and be alert of.

I had been a staunch defender of LEO's until events a couple of years ago tainted that... my neighborhood surrounded by open drug dealers... as in standing on the sidewalk with bags as cars would pull up saying "gimmie 30 crack king". Called 911 so many times that it was not funny. Nothing, never even came out. I finally started the standing in the street and filming the guys, drying up his business till he moved. I called and informed the detective what I was doing. I spoke to the cop on the beat one day, and he looked surprised saying he was never told about any of this. There was a drive-by shooting, cops drove by slowly afterwards, but never stopped and asked who it was or a description (and the neigbors knew them)

Finally about 6 hispanics bought a house a couple of doors over and started doing big time stuff out of the house. Finally called FBI, they asked me why not call the local LEO's and I explained it to them. The FBI raided the house with the ninja looking guys, and the guy was sentenced to life in prison as a major mexican dealer.

Anyway, I realize that I am digressing, but trying to point out that it does seem that LEO's may have some adgenda that is not always the needs of the populace. And that just as LEO's have encounters with the public that make them react certain ways, we the public also have had encounters with LEO's that can make us leary of them. I appreciate and respect their work, but have been made to realize that no one is going to take care of me better than me.

Wayne