Should the 380 be discouraged as a CCW ?

[WildBill]

Answering the original question, no the .380ACP should not be discouraged. Carrying a reliable concealed handgun should be encouraged.

[bigred90gt]

If someone can buy XD9SC, or PX4SC you got 13+1 rds of +P JHP is not bigger or lot havier than .380 with 9rds or less. Why not?

I have to completely disagree with your size assessment of the XD SC and a .380 mouse gun. I've got an XD SC (mine just happens to be a .40, but is the same exact dimensions as the 9), and I've owned and shot several models of the small pocket .380. I can tell you, without question, there is no comparing the size. The .380 mouse guns are FAR smaller and lighter than the XD. I dont know enough about PX4SC, but I cant imagine ANY double stack 9mm being no bigger than a single stack .380. Even my PF9, which is a single stack 9mm holding 7+1 is noticeably larger than the pocket .380's such as the LCP or the P3AT.

I am personally fine with a .380 in a pinch. I'd rather have a .380 than nothing. I almost wish I would have gotten a LCP or a P3AT over my PF9, simply because they are smaller. The PF9 fits in my pocket and conceals well there, but it is noticeably larger than either the LCP or P3AT. During the week, when I spend most of my time at work, I carry the PF9 simply because I do not want to take off/put on my holster several times a day. I can just throw the PF9 in my pocket and be on my way, but if I had it to do again, I'd get a smaller .380. I also understand the limitations of the .380 and would have to take them into consideration in any unfortunate situation where I had to use it. Hopefully, if I was at a distance great enough for the ballistics of the .380 to be in question, there would be enough obstacles between me and the threat that I could get away.

[Katygunnut]

Here is a test scenario:
You were at home sitting in front of the TV with a 45 ACP, a 9mm and a .380 ACP on the coffee table. You are thoroughly familiar with each of the three pistols, they are equally reliable in terms of function, and you shoot well with each one.

• Question 1: If a kick burglar comes through your front door, which pistol would you choose to fight with and why?

None of the above. I'm grabbing the AR in that situation. If the AR is not in reach, I'll grab whatever pistol is closest and use it to fight my way to the AR.

Given the scenario, I'll take a 12 gauge. Of course, that is impacted by the specifics of where my front door is in relation to my couch. If I start out in bed, then I'm picking an AR.

[DoubleJ]

We really need to have someone who has been shot, under similar dress and other circumstances, with both a .380 acp and a .45 acp discuss their feelings on these two different calibers.

Well, I've not been shot, but I've been shot *at* with a .380acp. I believe it was a Bersa Thunder .380, but I can't be certain, as I only saw the gun for a moment.
to make a long story long, the armed intruder fired two shots, the first going through a standard metal apartment door, which the bullet then went across the living room and bounced off the drywall (it did make a dent!), the second shot was fired inside the apartment, and it went across the living room, hit the inside of a fireplace, and bounced off.
the shooter attempted a third shot, but the gun had jammed after the second and rendered inoperable.

for me, and only me, I wouldn't trust something that goes through an apartment door and bounces off of drywall, but that's, again, just me. I wouldn't have wanted to be in front of either bullet, either!

[Katygunnut]

Answering the original question, no the .380ACP should not be discouraged. Carrying a reliable concealed handgun should be encouraged.

I completely agree that carrying of any reliable handgun should be encouraged. Maybe its just me, but I'm picturing the scenario where someone new to CC asks for my advice on a carry weapon. In that situation, I would discourage them from carrying a 380 (except as a BUG), because I personally believe there are better choices available.

I would definitely encourage most anyone to carry a 380 if their other choice was not to carry a gun at all, although I would want to understadn that situation a little better. Of course, there are also some people who I would discourage from carrying a weapon at all due to their lack of impulse control.

[Dusty Harry]

No doubt I would like to always have a .45 at my disposal, as I usually do in the cooler months. But as the weather gets warmer, it becomes progessively harder to carry larger guns. (That also means you aren't likely to have to punch through more than a t-shirt layer to hit paydirt.) I have a Kahr P380 full of Cor-Bons that I could conceal naked (although the front sight hurts a bit!).

Let's talk numbers for 38 cal defensive rounds. The Cor-Bon .380 90 Gr. +P is rated at 220 ft-lbs of energy. Compare that to a Speer 115 Gr 38+P load at 248 lbs of energy. So, are we really having a stopping power discussion over 28 ft-lb difference? I'll take a faster reload in a thinner package any day. Sure, that still less than the 340-400 ft.-lbs of a 9mm, but that's what double-taps are for. (BTW, that little Kahr is deadly accurate within common defensive ranges.)

Bottom line, a .380 is not ideal, but I sure wouldn't want to be the recipient of a 'high performance' .380 slug in my face. I'm OK with a .380 in my pocket rather than my next line of defense, which is a 4" Benchmade...

[WildBill]

Answering the original question, no the .380ACP should not be discouraged. Carrying a reliable concealed handgun should be encouraged.

I completely agree that carrying of any reliable handgun should be encouraged. Maybe its just me, but I'm picturing the scenario where someone new to CC asks for my advice on a carry weapon. In that situation, I would discourage them from carrying a 380 (except as a BUG), because I personally believe there are better choices available.

I would definitely encourage most anyone to carry a 380 if their other choice was not to carry a gun at all, although I would want to understand that situation a little better. Of course, there are also some people who I would discourage from carrying a weapon at all due to their lack of impulse control.

Katygunnut - Very well stated. I don't agree that a blanket statement discouraging the .380ACP is justified. After doing some research and gaining some knowledge about the pros and cons about different calibers and choice of handguns, that person could then make their own informed decision.

[wgoforth]

FWIW, about a year ago, Tom Gresham (Gun Talk host) apologized to his listeners. He said for years he said a .380 was not sufficient for personal defense...however, he said his info was outdated. He had come back from a week at GUNSITE where he got to shoot an LCP at night using a laser. He said with it, it was dead accurate. Too, he said they did ballistics gel and he realizes now that due to new design, .380 is as powerful as a .38 +P. That was his assesment anyway. I am currently carrying the S&W Bodyguard .380 with an extra mag.

[03Lightningrocks]

FWIW, about a year ago, Tom Gresham (Gun Talk host) apologized to his listeners. He said for years he said a .380 was not sufficient for personal defense...however, he said his info was outdated. He had come back from a week at GUNSITE where he got to shoot an LCP at night using a laser. He said with it, it was dead accurate. Too, he said they did ballistics gel and he realizes now that due to new design, .380 is as powerful as a .38 +P. That was his assessment anyway. I am currently carrying the S&W Bodyguard .380 with an extra mag.

I believe the differences come into play when a bullet has to go through multiple layers of clothing or a jacket. Or maybe even through the car window if you are having to fire at an assailant approaching your car. I can believe a 380 striking ballistic gel might show equal penetration of a 38+P. But..... put anything in front of the gel and I bet the results would change.

Increase the distance by even 7-10 feet and I bet the results would change as well. While I don't begrudge a person using the .380 as a "better than nothing" carry solution. I have to say I would probably not recommend the caliber to anyone.

[wgoforth]

FWIW, about a year ago, Tom Gresham (Gun Talk host) apologized to his listeners. He said for years he said a .380 was not sufficient for personal defense...however, he said his info was outdated. He had come back from a week at GUNSITE where he got to shoot an LCP at night using a laser. He said with it, it was dead accurate. Too, he said they did ballistics gel and he realizes now that due to new design, .380 is as powerful as a .38 +P. That was his assessment anyway. I am currently carrying the S&W Bodyguard .380 with an extra mag.

I believe the differences come into play when a bullet has to go through multiple layers of clothing or a jacket. Or maybe even through the car window if you are having to fire at an assailant approaching your car. I can believe a 380 striking ballistic gel might show equal penetration of a 38+P. But..... put anything in front of the gel and I bet the results would change.

Increase the distance by even 7-10 feet and I bet the results would change as well. While I don't begrudge a person using the .380 as a "better than nothing" carry solution. I have to say I would probably not recommend the caliber to anyone.

I suspect your right. Hornady does make (and I use) the rubber-nosed hollow points that are supposed to aid penetration through layers. I carry it for upclose personal work. Wouldn't want to be in a mall shooting scenerio with one if I could help it.

[kragluver]

Short answer - no.

Would you want to be shot by a .380 - especially with the modern SD rounds?

My wife has one and I carry a P64 in 9X18 Mak (very nearly .380 ballistically) at times.

[03Lightningrocks]

Would you want to be shot by a .380 - especially with the modern SD rounds?

I wouldn't want to be shot by a BB gun either but I don't plan to carry one for self defense. The response about wanting to get shot by this or that caliber is really not valid. The better way of putting it would be. If I have to be shot by a firearm which caliber would I choose. I am going to go with my best chance of survival and say the .380.

[zero4o3]

Would you want to be shot by a .380 - especially with the modern SD rounds?

I wouldn't want to be shot by a BB gun either but I don't plan to carry one for self defense. The response about wanting to get shot by this or that caliber is really not valid. The better way of putting it would be. If I have to be shot by a firearm which caliber would I choose. I am going to go with my best chance of survival and say the .380.

you would rather be shot by a .380 then a .22 .25 or .32?

your best chance of survival in my mind, would be with the gun the shooter is less accurate with.

[03Lightningrocks]

Would you want to be shot by a .380 - especially with the modern SD rounds?

I wouldn't want to be shot by a BB gun either but I don't plan to carry one for self defense. The response about wanting to get shot by this or that caliber is really not valid. The better way of putting it would be. If I have to be shot by a firearm which caliber would I choose. I am going to go with my best chance of survival and say the .380.

you would rather be shot by a .380 then a .22 .25 or .32?

Not to get a whole ballistics conversation going but the 22 caliber is known to cause serious damage by bouncing around inside your body like the metal ball in a pin ball machine. You die in misery hours after being shot.

Aside from that, my choice was based on the comparison of the rounds being seriously considered as defense rounds in this thread. I would seriously discourage anything less than the .380. Like I posted... the .380 is what I consider "Better Than Nothing" . The .22 .25 or .32 are rounds I would have to answer yes to the survey question.

If I were to add the rounds you mentioned to my choices, I would go with the .25 over the .380.

your best chance of survival in my mind, would be with the gun the shooter is MOST accurate with.

I assume you meant most so I changed it to keep others from getting confused.

That statement has limitations. Think about it for a minute. At the average distance involving self defense, accuracy differences are minimal. Shooting two inches to one side or the other is not going to make a .380 equivalent with a .45 in ballistics.

Heck, a 44 magnum can cause enough trauma that I can shoot a guy in the arm and kill him...LOL. (Disclaimer: This comment was made tongue in cheek. Any attempt to defend ones self by shooting off the arm of the bad guy is at the jeopardy of the one defending themselves. I assume no responsibility if this tactic fails to work) .


BTW... no jokes about how old you have to be to know what a pin ball machine is.

[zero4o3]

Would you want to be shot by a .380 - especially with the modern SD rounds?

If I were to add the rounds you mentioned to my choices, I would go with the .25 over the .380.

your best chance of survival in my mind, would be with the gun the shooter is MOST accurate with.

I assume you meant most so I changed it to keep others from getting confused.

That statement has limitations. Think about it for a minute. At the average distance involving self defense, accuracy differences are minimal. Shooting two inches to one side or the other is not going to make a .380 equivalent with a .45 in ballistics.

Heck, a 44 magnum can cause enough trauma that I can shoot a guy in the arm and kill him...LOL. (Disclaimer: This comment was made tongue in cheek. Any attempt to defend ones self by shooting off the arm of the bad guy is at the jeopardy of the one defending themselves. I assume no responsibility if this tactic fails to work) .


BTW... no jokes about how old you have to be to know what a pin ball machine is.

I wasnt thinking about it as a rounds we have talked about in this thread and in that mindset I can agree with you.