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Re: B.O.W.I.E. Club - EDCing of an Illegal Knife.

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:36 pm
by denwego
C-dub wrote:
denwego wrote: nevertheless, it's now perfectly legal to carry all manners of knives and clubs in our cars without a CHL just as much as a handgun (and arguably more so, since knives and clubs don't need to be concealed in cars).
Does it really say this? That doesn't quite sound right. If one does not have a CHL and are carrying one doesn't get the exception. I don't remember, but does the MPA address these other generally illegal weapons?
Yep, it's built in to §46.02 now as part of the response to Rosenthal in Harris County. Here's the text for reference:

Code: Select all

Sec. 46.02.  UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS.  (a)  A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
(1)  on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or
(2)  inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control.
(a-1)  A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:
(1)  the handgun is in plain view; or
(2)  the person is:
(A)  engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic;
(B)  prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
(C)  a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.
There are technically two separate crimes in UCW; it's illegal to carry those weapons unless you're on your property or in your car, and it's also a crime that if you're carrying a handgun in a car, it needs to be concealed, you can't be a criminal, and you can't be a gang member. So you can have an illegal knife or club in your car without a license the same as in your home, and since the second crime only applies to a handgun, they don't need to be concealed, etc. A Dallas cop was quoted as complaining about this "oversight" as he saw it in this news article, which isn't available right now: http://dfw.cbslocal.com/topstories/loca ... 11541.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Maybe someone can find an archived copy somewhere to soak in his impotent rage, heh.

Re: B.O.W.I.E. Club - EDCing of an Illegal Knife.

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:38 pm
by speedsix
...those among us who are best trained in the defensive/offensive use of a knife might kick in here...I feel more than adequate with a 4" fixed blade of a clearly legal style...and I would shoot a man who was after me with a 2 1/2" blade as quickly as I would shoot a man with a showy, intimidating, look-what-I-have knife as pictured here...it's not so much the size of the blade as the size of the man wielding it...only a fool goes to a knife fight...

Re: B.O.W.I.E. Club - EDCing of an Illegal Knife.

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:57 pm
by MadMonkey
sugar land dave wrote:Open carry of Bowie Knives....... :roll:
I did it when I was a kid and didn't know any better (I'm talking like 8-9 years old, not as a teenager). I thought it was awesome even though it extended below my knees :smilelol5:

Probably looks just as ridiculous now unless you're a mountain man. I'll say this, if you're going to carry one I hope you know how to use it well. A light fighting knife is going to be much faster...

Re: B.O.W.I.E. Club - EDCing of an Illegal Knife.

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:31 pm
by C-dub
denwego wrote:
C-dub wrote:
denwego wrote: nevertheless, it's now perfectly legal to carry all manners of knives and clubs in our cars without a CHL just as much as a handgun (and arguably more so, since knives and clubs don't need to be concealed in cars).
Does it really say this? That doesn't quite sound right. If one does not have a CHL and are carrying one doesn't get the exception. I don't remember, but does the MPA address these other generally illegal weapons?
Yep, it's built in to §46.02 now as part of the response to Rosenthal in Harris County. Here's the text for reference:

Code: Select all

Sec. 46.02.  UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS.  (a)  A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
(1)  on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or
(2)  inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control.
(a-1)  A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:
(1)  the handgun is in plain view; or
(2)  the person is:
(A)  engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic;
(B)  prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
(C)  a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.
There are technically two separate crimes in UCW; it's illegal to carry those weapons unless you're on your property or in your car, and it's also a crime that if you're carrying a handgun in a car, it needs to be concealed, you can't be a criminal, and you can't be a gang member. So you can have an illegal knife or club in your car without a license the same as in your home, and since the second crime only applies to a handgun, they don't need to be concealed, etc. A Dallas cop was quoted as complaining about this "oversight" as he saw it in this news article, which isn't available right now: http://dfw.cbslocal.com/topstories/loca ... 11541.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Maybe someone can find an archived copy somewhere to soak in his impotent rage, heh.
:headscratch Well, I guess since it specifically mentions guns, but doesn't say anything about an illegal knife or club having to be concealed it must be okay.

Re: B.O.W.I.E. Club - EDCing of an Illegal Knife.

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:48 pm
by Skiprr
Just a note that while I'm not aware of any case law that specifically addresses carry of an illegal knife by a duly-licensed CHL also carrying a handgun of the type licensed, there is case law from the Fourth Court of Appeals that addresses simultaneous UCW of an illegal knife and unlawful carrying of a handgun on licensed premises.

In this case (Trial Court No. 2003-CR-1735; Honorable Sharon MacRae, Judge Presiding), the defendant "entered a plea of nolo contendere to the misdemeanor offense of unlawful carrying of an illegal knife. The trial court assessed her punishment at nine months' confinement along with a $600.00 fine. Her nine-month sentence was suspended and she was placed on community supervision for a period of ten months. Subsequently, defendant was indicted for unlawful carrying of a handgun on licensed premises. Defendant filed a pre-trial application for writ of habeas corpus, alleging this second prosecution was barred by her previous plea of nolo contendere. After an evidentiary hearing, the trial court denied relief. Concluding that defendant's second prosecution is not jeopardy-barred, we affirm."

In opinion No. 04-03-00658-CR, delivered 9 June 2004 by Justice Marion in overruling defendant's appeal, an important precedent to me is:
We hold that the allowable unit of prosecution under section 46.02 is the weapon. Therefore, the unlawful carrying of a knife and the unlawful carrying of a gun are two separate and distinct offenses for which defendant may be prosecuted.
There is a footnote to that statement which reads: "In this appeal, we do not address whether the carrying of more than one of the same type of weapon is a single offense or different offenses. Our holding is limited to the facts presented here: defendant was charged with the unlawful carrying of two different types of weapons."

So it seems clear to me that, after PC §46.15 was published to state that §46.02 and §46.03 do not apply to some who "is traveling," or "is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying," there is at least one state appellate court opinion that clearly separates the carrying of a knife and the carrying of a handgun into two distinct actions.

I think that provides ammunition for an aggressive DA, as does the fact that PC §46.15's nonapplicability statements do nothing to modify the definitions under PC §46.01(6). You'll note that the only defined term that specifically contains the word "illegal" is "illegal knife."

For other browsing: Third Court of Appeals, No. 3-88-001-CR, 1988; police may confiscate any knife carried openly for the purpose of having it examined for legality. Second Court of Appeals, No. 2-98-101-CR, 1 July 1999; the unsharpened part of a knife's edge is included in the definition of "blade," and is therefore included in measurement of length for purposes of determining legality (there were earlier cases on this same issue: Eleventh Court of Appeals, No. 11-88-102-CR, 12 January 1989; and Fifth Court of Appeals, No. 05-97-01603-CR, 9 September 1998). Ninth Court of Appeals, No. 09-83-051 CR, 11 January 1984; any perceived vagueness in the Penal Code's definition of "illegal knife" does nothing to void the definition. Unrelated to overall length, but there are several appeals in the case law dealing with daggers, double-edged, and the shapes of blades.

I for one am all for a rewrite of Texas knife laws to make them clearer and less restrictive. It would also be nice to see a statement of preemption so that municipalities cannot--as some do today--establish knife laws that differ from state law. But as one who has had a bit of training in using a blade, I don't see any real practical purpose to carrying a Bowie knife in an urban environment. Big, heavy knives are not easy to learn to use well.

So I guess my personal stance is that I don't want to spend a lot of money on an attorney, spend a lot of time in court, and potentially lose my CHL in order to try to defend a potential UCW charge carrying a knife I don't feel is practical for EDC anyway.

Re: B.O.W.I.E. Club - EDCing of an Illegal Knife.

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:02 pm
by C-dub
Liberty wrote: The law as it was written had no exceptions, they clearly didn't want people running around with these types of weapons. The CHL part was written afterwards and created the exceptions. ..
As it was originally, yes. I don't remember what it was like at first when the CHL laws went into effect. I wasn't concerned with them at that time and didn't even think about owning or carrying a gun for another 5-6 years. It appears, though, that after a while someone thought it a little bit ridiculous to say that someone could not carry a certain type of knife or club, but a gun was okay. I don't know if this was sneaked in or not, but it might have been added when churches, hospitals, and amusement parks were forced to post 30.06 signs. They were correcting a lot of things that year.

Re: B.O.W.I.E. Club - EDCing of an Illegal Knife.

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:30 pm
by speedsix
MadMonkey wrote:
sugar land dave wrote:Open carry of Bowie Knives....... :roll:
I did it when I was a kid and didn't know any better (I'm talking like 8-9 years old, not as a teenager). I thought it was awesome even though it extended below my knees :smilelol5:

Probably looks just as ridiculous now unless you're a mountain man. I'll say this, if you're going to carry one I hope you know how to use it well. A light fighting knife is going to be much faster...

... :thumbs2: on the "...hope you know how to use it well..." I've read somewhere that it was good to smear Vaseline on the blade of any knife you didn't know how to use...and we'll leave it there...

Re: B.O.W.I.E. Club - EDCing of an Illegal Knife.

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:09 pm
by denwego
Skiprr wrote:Just a note that while I'm not aware of any case law that specifically addresses carry of an illegal knife by a duly-licensed CHL also carrying a handgun of the type licensed, there is case law from the Fourth Court of Appeals that addresses simultaneous UCW of an illegal knife and unlawful carrying of a handgun on licensed premises.

In this case (Trial Court No. 2003-CR-1735; Honorable Sharon MacRae, Judge Presiding), the defendant "entered a plea of nolo contendere to the misdemeanor offense of unlawful carrying of an illegal knife. The trial court assessed her punishment at nine months' confinement along with a $600.00 fine. Her nine-month sentence was suspended and she was placed on community supervision for a period of ten months. Subsequently, defendant was indicted for unlawful carrying of a handgun on licensed premises. Defendant filed a pre-trial application for writ of habeas corpus, alleging this second prosecution was barred by her previous plea of nolo contendere. After an evidentiary hearing, the trial court denied relief. Concluding that defendant's second prosecution is not jeopardy-barred, we affirm."

In opinion No. 04-03-00658-CR, delivered 9 June 2004 by Justice Marion in overruling defendant's appeal, an important precedent to me is:
We hold that the allowable unit of prosecution under section 46.02 is the weapon. Therefore, the unlawful carrying of a knife and the unlawful carrying of a gun are two separate and distinct offenses for which defendant may be prosecuted.
There is a footnote to that statement which reads: "In this appeal, we do not address whether the carrying of more than one of the same type of weapon is a single offense or different offenses. Our holding is limited to the facts presented here: defendant was charged with the unlawful carrying of two different types of weapons."

So it seems clear to me that, after PC §46.15 was published to state that §46.02 and §46.03 do not apply to some who "is traveling," or "is carrying a concealed handgun and a valid license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category as the handgun the person is carrying," there is at least one state appellate court opinion that clearly separates the carrying of a knife and the carrying of a handgun into two distinct actions.

I think that provides ammunition for an aggressive DA, as does the fact that PC §46.15's nonapplicability statements do nothing to modify the definitions under PC §46.01(6). You'll note that the only defined term that specifically contains the word "illegal" is "illegal knife."

For other browsing: Third Court of Appeals, No. 3-88-001-CR, 1988; police may confiscate any knife carried openly for the purpose of having it examined for legality. Second Court of Appeals, No. 2-98-101-CR, 1 July 1999; the unsharpened part of a knife's edge is included in the definition of "blade," and is therefore included in measurement of length for purposes of determining legality (there were earlier cases on this same issue: Eleventh Court of Appeals, No. 11-88-102-CR, 12 January 1989; and Fifth Court of Appeals, No. 05-97-01603-CR, 9 September 1998). Ninth Court of Appeals, No. 09-83-051 CR, 11 January 1984; any perceived vagueness in the Penal Code's definition of "illegal knife" does nothing to void the definition. Unrelated to overall length, but there are several appeals in the case law dealing with daggers, double-edged, and the shapes of blades.

I for one am all for a rewrite of Texas knife laws to make them clearer and less restrictive. It would also be nice to see a statement of preemption so that municipalities cannot--as some do today--establish knife laws that differ from state law. But as one who has had a bit of training in using a blade, I don't see any real practical purpose to carrying a Bowie knife in an urban environment. Big, heavy knives are not easy to learn to use well.

So I guess my personal stance is that I don't want to spend a lot of money on an attorney, spend a lot of time in court, and potentially lose my CHL in order to try to defend a potential UCW charge carrying a knife I don't feel is practical for EDC anyway.
That's a very nice find, Skiprr! It's definitely precedent which would be cited in a test case, and it doesn't help the accused at all.

I suppose my counter to this would be the negation of §46.02 by §46.15 for a CHL+concealed handgun. If I carried two handguns without a license as I sat in a bar, I would certainly be charged with two counts of UCW, because each individual act constitutes a separate offense. So it makes perfect sense that the court found that two different weapons are two different potential charges, and double jeopardy shouldn't apply. If the section is negated, however, then multiple violations are equally negated. The CHL undisputedly negates the handgun UCW charge under §46.02, and the plain language to me indicates a negation of the knife UCW as well. My previous post about intent of the law, though, doesn't go away... it's a beat-the-rap-not-the-ride situation, and I wouldn't bet on a jury being versed enough to let someone beat the rap either. I just read it myself as being OK.

Anyone else vote for or against?

My bowie stays in the car, anyways! ;-)

Re: B.O.W.I.E. Club - EDCing of an Illegal Knife.

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:28 pm
by gigag04
I don't care what courts say, or even what well versed CHL instructors, or police officers say,

The OP stated that it's clear and there is no way I could get charged. What more could one ask for??

Re: B.O.W.I.E. Club - EDCing of an Illegal Knife.

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:38 pm
by MoJo
gigag04 wrote:I don't care what courts say, or even what well versed CHL instructors, or police officers say,

The OP stated that it's clear and there is no way I could get charged. What more could one ask for??
A Moon Pie and an RC Cola!

Re: B.O.W.I.E. Club - EDCing of an Illegal Knife.

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:41 pm
by ELB
My two cents:

1. The exception written for those who have a CHL and are carrying a concealed handgun, as written, pretty clearly allows the same person to carry "illegal knives."

2. Much of the lawyer's trade, both on the side of the state (prosecution) and the defense, lies in arguing why other parts of the law, previous case law, interpretation, and reading between the words, delving into "intent," mean that law as written really means something else.

3. DAs are given great latitude in pursuing crimes, perceived crimes, and events that are on or beyond the fringe of criminal activity. They are very seldom punished for overdoing it. Police officers are not accorded the same degree of latitude, but it is pretty broad as well.

4. Citizens, on the other hand, can be severely punished for what a police officer, DA, or judge perceives as a possible crime, and there is very little the citizen can do about it even if ultimately exonerated. And yes, just being accused of a crime, never mind arrested and jailed, tried, convicted, etc, is punishment to one who generally obeys the law.

5. Ergo, As much as I think the written law is pretty clear, because of the uncertainty in enforced law, I am still going to be careful about the knives I carry in Texas. (As a side note, once again Indiana has exceptionally good knife laws as compared to Texas, just as they do with gun laws. Switchblades and ninja stars are illegal, but beyond that, fixed/folder, long blade short blade double edge blade -- carry away!)

speedsix wrote:...those among us who are best trained in the defensive/offensive use of a knife might kick in here...I feel more than adequate with a 4" fixed blade of a clearly legal style...and I would shoot a man who was after me with a 2 1/2" blade as quickly as I would shoot a man with a showy, intimidating, look-what-I-have knife as pictured here...it's not so much the size of the blade as the size of the man wielding it...only a fool goes to a knife fight...
I don't know if I am "best trained" but I have practiced regularly defending against (and with) a knife for the last year, and have formed some observations and beliefs. In general, I agree with speedsix, but here are some of my thoughts.

1. Anyone who is after you with any length blade, spike, ballpoint pen, nail, broken bottle, what-have-you is very dangerous, and it doesn't matter if it is wielded by man, woman, or child -- you are in big trouble and better act fast. It doesn't take much training or effort to use a knife offensively, but it takes a lot of effort to effectively defend against it. (If you have trained to use a knife for attack, you are just that much more effective.) You better have a really good reflex for dealing with that initial onslaught, and if your reflex is to push off the attacker with one hand while drawing a handgun (or knife) with the other (and probably backing up at the same time) the next five seconds are going to be very ugly for you.

2. At close-to-touching distances (i.e. where most citizen/thug interactions occur), a knife is more dangerous/effective than a gun. And pretty much by definition, a knife attack is going to be at close-to-touching distance. A knife cuts and stabs in many more dimensions, but is harder to defend against (For one example: you can grab the barrel of a gun and deflect; not recommended to grab the blade of a knife.)

3. Short blades do seem to be faster -- but long blades give reach, and that is not to be dismissed, and neither is the intimidation effect. Longer/heavier blades are slower-- but they are not slow. The people I know who are best with a knife often carry the biggest one they can reasonably conceal, and there's probably more than one of them would carry a full-sized bowie if he could. Some specifically choose heavy bladed knives, so that when they crack you across the hand with the blade, it not only cuts, it will likely break some bones.

A longer blade is probably slightly easier to effect a disarm on than a short one because of the leverage possible, but it is not enough possibility to warrant choosing a shorter blade over a longer one. However, despite the advantages a longer blade might have, I would not laugh at a shorter one. A four inch fixed is just dandy (I have a 3.5 myself.)

Also, the intimidation effect of a bigger knife should not be dismissed. It shouldn't be relied on, but it is there. In Lt Col Grossman's book On Killing, IIRC he notes that one of the hardest, most psychologically difficult things for a human to do is to stab, to plunge a blade, into another human. Conversely, encountering someone who is apparently willing to stick a blade in you is one of the most frightening things, more so than getting shot (which is why I think there are all these knife laws and heebie-jeebies about knives.) He indicated that determined bayonet charges, even against people armed with guns, seldom result in very many people getting stabbed -- because it is so darn scary that potential bayonetees turn and run. So the Crocodile Dundee "That's not a knife. This is a knife!" thing is not entirely a Hollywood fiction -- people are scared of knives, and bigger knives are scarier.

(We spend a lot of time worrying about scaring and intimidating the public -- occasionally we should also think about scaring and intimidating our criminal opponents ;-) )
(Also btw, if you haven't read Grossman's On Killing, you should. It is only a few dollars in Amazon's Kindle book shop, and you can read it on your home computer using Amazon's Kindle Reader for PC, which is a free application. Really. Go read it.)

4. Assuming equal accessibility, fixed blades are more reliable/foolproof for deployment -- you don't have to get them open like a folder. They also do not have a lock that might fail and close the blade on your fingers. For the same size knife, you can get a fixed blade more inexpensively than a folder, especially when you are looking to buy a folder with a decent locking mechanism (which what you should be doing for a defensive folder).

5. Folders, however, let you carry a longer/bigger (when opened) knife in the same or lesser length space (when closed) as a fixed blade, and even for the same size blade, may give you more reach than a fixed blade. Look at the Cold Steel Voyager XL (5.5" blade) and most 5.5 inch fixed blades -- the handle on the Voyager is longer than the handles on most fixed blades, so you can "choke back" on it and extend the reach of your blade another inch or two or three. The Voyager (and Spartan) handle is designed to facilitate this.

6. The drawback to folders are a) you have to unfold it to use the blade, and b) the lock must be STRONG. Deploying a folder when someone is climbing all over you is harder than deploying a fixed blade. It's bad enough if you are in the open, but if you are shoved up against a wall or on the ground with someone on your chest, it gets even more interesting. As far as the lock: I would not trust the locks on most inexpensive folders. I have a CRKT M-16, which is a quality made knife, but even on that I would not like to depend on its locking mechanism, and having to use the sliding lock dealy is not tactically sound for a fighting knife, I think. A lot of folding lock mechanisms can be made to fail rather quickly if you wiggle the blade 90 degrees to its usual direction of travel, i.e. sideways. I do not like the thought that if I slam the blade somewhat off center on some thug's skull, or catch it in his leather jacket and pull sideways, that the mechanism will fail and let the blade close. The Cold Steel Triad lock, like used on the Spartan and Voyager XL, seems pretty strong, and that's what I have gone with (Spartan).

As I said, I do not consider myself an expert knife fighter by any means, just a guy who has taken knife defense seriously for the last year+ and come to some conclusions (always subject to modification based on serious evidence).

If I could change just one element of Texas' knife laws, I would legalize "daggers" so that I could have a double edge fixed blade. I think the whole knife code should be scrapped. As far as carrying full-sized Bowies and such, I see it like Open Carry - I think it should be legal but I wouldn't do it myself -- I would still prefer to conceal my knife, just like my gun.

And finally, just like a handgun, carrying a small knife is much better than having a big one in the drawer back home. A hideway knife in the hand is much better than a Bowie in the display cabinat (and is much better than fingernails!).

Re: B.O.W.I.E. Club - EDCing of an Illegal Knife.

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:36 pm
by denwego
Probably the best read of the thread so far, ELB. I just changed one thing ;-)

ELB wrote:If I could change just one element of Texas' knife weapon laws, I would legalize "daggers" everything without a license so long as you don't threaten or harm anyone so that I could have a double edge fixed blade whatever I want. I think the whole knife weapons code should be scrapped.

Re: B.O.W.I.E. Club - EDCing of an Illegal Knife.

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:32 pm
by magillapd
I just bought the glock field knife however it's just going to stay at home. I carry a small folding knife as my EDC, I don't see a need for that large of a knife to be carried in normal everyday life.

Re: B.O.W.I.E. Club - EDCing of an Illegal Knife.

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:46 pm
by ELB
denwego wrote:Probably the best read of the thread so far, ELB. I just changed one thing ;-)

ELB wrote:If I could change just one element of Texas' knife weapon laws, I would legalize "daggers" everything without a license so long as you don't threaten or harm anyone so that I could have a double edge fixed blade whatever I want. I think the whole knife weapons code should be scrapped.
Heh. yes indeed. If I could change everything in texas law, rather than one thing, it would look a lot different (and be a lot shorter!).

Re: B.O.W.I.E. Club - EDCing of an Illegal Knife.

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:37 pm
by speedsix
...thanks for the thought and time to prepare that for us...it'll become a reference point for trying to get younguns interested in knives...a lotta good stuff in there...