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Re: I STOPPED A ROBBERY LAST NIGHT
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:55 pm
by Keith B
EEllis wrote:olafpfj wrote:I've been thinking about the part where the guy asked "Are you a cop?".
The OP answered "No" which seems to be what emboldened him to get back up.
Are there any legal issues if the OP or anyone else in that situation had answered "Yes"?
Others may have a better insight than I do but my understanding is that calling yourself a cop is generally ignored unless you use that to try and do something or get away with something. Basically you can walk around with a hot or a shirt saying your police but it doesn't get you arrested till you actually do something. In a case like this it would be way down my list of concerns but I would answer anything the bad guys ask. They don't get to ask anything. It's them trying to find a way to regain some control and you don't want to allow that. I'm the guy pointing a gun at them and that's all they need to know.
It comes down to intent and issuing an order that would not be one that anyone can exercise. Basically, since the guy was already committing a felony, then all best are off on getting prosecuted for impersonating a public servant by issuing an order to stay on the ground.
If I am asked that question when trying to legally detain someone, my answer will be 'I am not with a local law enforcement agency. Now be quite and wait for the local authorities to arrive.'
§ 37.11. IMPERSONATING PUBLIC SERVANT. (a) A person
commits an offense if he:
(1) impersonates a public servant with intent to
induce another to submit to his pretended official authority or to
rely on his pretended official acts; or
(2) knowingly purports to exercise any function of a
public servant or of a public office, including that of a judge and
court, and the position or office through which he purports to
exercise a function of a public servant or public office has no
lawful existence under the constitution or laws of this state or of
the United States.
(b) An offense under this section is a felony of the third
degree.
Re: I STOPPED A ROBBERY LAST NIGHT
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:02 pm
by anygunanywhere
Keith B wrote:EEllis wrote:olafpfj wrote:I've been thinking about the part where the guy asked "Are you a cop?".
The OP answered "No" which seems to be what emboldened him to get back up.
Are there any legal issues if the OP or anyone else in that situation had answered "Yes"?
Others may have a better insight than I do but my understanding is that calling yourself a cop is generally ignored unless you use that to try and do something or get away with something. Basically you can walk around with a hot or a shirt saying your police but it doesn't get you arrested till you actually do something. In a case like this it would be way down my list of concerns but I would answer anything the bad guys ask. They don't get to ask anything. It's them trying to find a way to regain some control and you don't want to allow that. I'm the guy pointing a gun at them and that's all they need to know.
It comes down to intent and issuing an order that would not be one that anyone can exercise. Basically, since the guy was already committing a felony, then all best are off on getting prosecuted for impersonating a public servant by issuing an order to stay on the ground.
If I am asked that question when trying to legally detain someone, my answer will be 'I am not with a local law enforcement agency. Now be quite and wait for the local authorities to arrive.'
§ 37.11. IMPERSONATING PUBLIC SERVANT. (a) A person
commits an offense if he:
(1) impersonates a public servant with intent to
induce another to submit to his pretended official authority or to
rely on his pretended official acts; or
(2) knowingly purports to exercise any function of a
public servant or of a public office, including that of a judge and
court, and the position or office through which he purports to
exercise a function of a public servant or public office has no
lawful existence under the constitution or laws of this state or of
the United States.
(b) An offense under this section is a felony of the third
degree.
Great answer!
Re: I STOPPED A ROBBERY LAST NIGHT
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:07 pm
by Jumping Frog
Keith B wrote:If I am asked that question when trying to legally detain someone, my answer will be 'I am not with a local law enforcement agency. Now be quite and wait for the local authorities to arrive.'
I'd be shouting, "Shut the blamkety blank up and stay or the ground or I will shoot you.". I'd blow right past the question with a command.
Re: I STOPPED A ROBBERY LAST NIGHT
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:36 pm
by Javier730
The Annoyed Man wrote:Javier730, well done. I have one question, and a comment or two.....
The question.....
Has your wife considered getting a CHL after this event? She was fortunate to have you with her at the time, but has she considered what might have happened if you had not been there?
The comments....
I think you probably handled this about as well as could be expected. The only two things I might have done differently are:
First — and let me be clear that this is a criticism of me, not you — is that I think I might have been frightened enough to shoot him when he started to get up, because for me, letting him get up is to let things spiral further out of control. He's damned lucky you had a cooler head.
Second — I would not have answered his question about you being a cop with anything more than, "if you don't stay down, I will shoot". That's all he needs to know.
But other than that, you did a fine job. Glad everyone is OK.
Yes. My wife is now looking to get her chl. Like I said before, the trigger was slowly being squeezed when he got up. After the second warning he backed up said "please dont shoot me!". His hands were up and he was stumbling back. He wasnt being very compliant but he no longer approaching me and was not reaching for a weapon. He had fear in his eyes. They were wide open. As for responding to his question, it just came out. Its hard to explain. Thank you for your comments.
Re: I STOPPED A ROBBERY LAST NIGHT
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:40 pm
by Javier730
Jumping Frog wrote:Keith B wrote:If I am asked that question when trying to legally detain someone, my answer will be 'I am not with a local law enforcement agency. Now be quite and wait for the local authorities to arrive.'
I'd be shouting, "Shut the blamkety blank up and stay or the ground or I will shoot you.". I'd blow right past the question with a command.
I said no to him followed closely but something similar to what you posted. He still stood up though. I figured maybe the adrenaline he had was making him not think straight.
Re: I STOPPED A ROBBERY LAST NIGHT
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:01 pm
by CHLLady
Javier, you are a HERO and will always be in the eyes of your wife and child. Let that sink in.
You did what you thought was best and came out the winner here. Stop second guessing yourself. It happened. Your family, customers and workers are all safe and healthy thanks to you. Who knows if this kid will mend his ways and one day say a prayer of thanks to the man who could have killed him and didn't.
Thank you for sharing your story. Well done!!
Re: I STOPPED A ROBBERY LAST NIGHT
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:07 pm
by gljjt
CHLLady wrote:Javier, you are a HERO and will always be in the eyes of your wife and child. Let that sink in.
You did what you thought was best and came out the winner here. Stop second guessing yourself. It happened. Your family, customers and workers are all safe and healthy thanks to you. Who knows if this kid will mend his ways and one day say a prayer of thanks to the man who could have killed him and didn't.
Thank you for sharing your story. Well done!!
Agree with the above. It is not your responsibility to mold him into a model citizen or remove him from the gene pool. Your foremost responsibility is to protect your family. Judging by the outcome, you did this perfectly. Well done.
Re: I STOPPED A ROBBERY LAST NIGHT
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:20 pm
by Oldgringo
Jumping Frog wrote:Keith B wrote:If I am asked that question when trying to legally detain someone, my answer will be 'I am not with a local law enforcement agency. Now be quite and wait for the local authorities to arrive.'
I'd be shouting, "Shut the blamkety blank up and stay or the ground or I will shoot you.". I'd blow right past the question with a command.
...that's kinda' what I was thinkin'. This ain't the time for discussion. If you pull your gun, you'd better be prepared to use it
OR lose it.
Re: I STOPPED A ROBBERY LAST NIGHT
Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:50 am
by drjoker
Oldgringo wrote:Jumping Frog wrote:Keith B wrote:If I am asked that question when trying to legally detain someone, my answer will be 'I am not with a local law enforcement agency. Now be quite and wait for the local authorities to arrive.'
I'd be shouting, "Shut the blamkety blank up and stay or the ground or I will shoot you.". I'd blow right past the question with a command.
...that's kinda' what I was thinkin'. This ain't the time for discussion. If you pull your gun, you'd better be prepared to use it
OR lose it.
You did fine. Many people freeze and cannot answer the perp's question at all (or do anything at all).
I once saw a guy detain another guy. the perp asked the same question. He ignored the perp and did not answer the perp's question. Instead, he told the perp that "he had the right to remain silent, anything the perp says can and will be used against him in a court of law, etc." You see, a real cop wouldn't answer the perp's question, either. Remember, the LEO is the one asking the questions, not the perp.
Re: I STOPPED A ROBBERY LAST NIGHT
Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:52 am
by Keith B
Oldgringo wrote:Jumping Frog wrote:Keith B wrote:If I am asked that question when trying to legally detain someone, my answer will be 'I am not with a local law enforcement agency. Now be quite and wait for the local authorities to arrive.'
I'd be shouting, "Shut the blamkety blank up and stay or the ground or I will shoot you.". I'd blow right past the question with a command.
...that's kinda' what I was thinkin'. This ain't the time for discussion. If you pull your gun, you'd better be prepared to use it
OR lose it.
I was not really talking as much about someone who was committing a felony, but someone I was just trying to convince to wait around for the police to intervene.
I used that once to get someone who I thought was driving intoxicated to wait until police arrived. Turns out she was actually bipolar and off her meds and the police ended up getting someone to come and get her and drive the minivan home.
In the case of the OP where the person had committed a crime, I am like you guys, I would tell stay on the ground and not move with no other answer.
Re: I STOPPED A ROBBERY LAST NIGHT
Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:28 am
by Excaliber
Javier730 wrote:Jumping Frog wrote:Keith B wrote:If I am asked that question when trying to legally detain someone, my answer will be 'I am not with a local law enforcement agency. Now be quite and wait for the local authorities to arrive.'
I'd be shouting, "Shut the blamkety blank up and stay or the ground or I will shoot you.". I'd blow right past the question with a command.
I said no to him followed closely but something similar to what you posted. He still stood up though. I figured maybe the adrenaline he had was making him not think straight.
What most likely happened was he was trying to assess the likelihood of getting shot if he got up. He probably wouldn't have risked it with an LEO, but figured a citizen might be less decisive and not want to shoot. Although he was right in this case, he took a really big gamble and was lucky that you held your fire.
I'd answer his question with, "NO TALKING!. DON"T MOVE!"
Positioning is important too because he can use a look at your eyes and body language to assess intent. That's why you want to force him to look away from you and quarter yourself away from his feet on the side he's not facing so he can't do that. That also increases the reaction time available to you if he decides to do something hostile because he has to locate you and orient himself to you in order to attack.
Those are some of the finer points that can be put into the mental file for the next time. This encounter might not have been a textbook case, but reality usually isn't.
The bigger picture is that performance is ultimately judged by results, and you did fine under the circumstances and with your level of training. No one got hurt, you didn't have to shoot, and you don't have any legal or mental health bills.
I call that a clean win.
Re: I STOPPED A ROBBERY LAST NIGHT
Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:46 am
by AustinBoy
Javier730 wrote:SewTexas wrote:Javier, how are you and your wife doing? I'm sure you're both pretty shaken up.
Thanks for asking, we are actually doing pretty good. Not as shaken up as I thought we would be. Its a real eye opener for my wife though. She never had a problem with firearms but she never felt the need to carry one. That has since changed. As for me, the situation doesnt have me shaken up, I am really just kind of second guessing what I did. I keep thinking about what happened and replaying the situation in my head over and over. I hate to sound like a bad person but thinking back, I feel like I should of shot him because I would hate to find out that he hurt someone in the future. I know that police officers are not lawyers, and that they do not have a full understanding of the law, but 2 officers said that I would have been justified had I shot, and that in doing so I could have prevented him from hurting someone in the future. Another officer said I should of shot, not because of the reasons I said, but for the fact that at the distance the bad guy was, he could got to me before I could react. The comments made I know were just there opinion but they made sense and everything they told me was something I was already thinking about. Im almost 100% sure I could of squeezed off at least once if he tried something when he first got up though. Not really a traumatizing experience but it sure is something I will never forget.
I am a very optimistic and trusting person. To the point that I have been called gullible many times in my life for not being able to see the "bad" in people.
but....
Maybe this BG was a husband and a father.
Maybe he lost his job and he and his family had fallen on hard times.
Maybe he was desperate.
Maybe this was his first offense.
Maybe he learned a lesson and was "scared straight".
Maybe, just maybe, you changed a life and sent a father/husband back to a loving a family.
I am in NO way justifying his actions. What he did was wrong even if all of the above is true.
Regardless, you did an EXCELLENT job!
Best wishes to you and your family.
AB
Re: I STOPPED A ROBBERY LAST NIGHT
Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:56 pm
by ELB
WRT to the shoot/don't shoot question: It is interesting to consider that (by my count) at least four Secret Service officers, at three different points in the timeline, pointed handguns at the White House fence jumper...but did not shoot him. Previously I would have thought one fast way to get shot would be to rush the White House, but I guess not. Finally took four guys to pin him down.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/14/us/se ... &referrer=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: I STOPPED A ROBBERY LAST NIGHT
Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:10 pm
by Charles L. Cotton
You did a great job.
Some have asked about how to answer a BG's question "are you a COP." My answer would be "you're under arrest for aggravated robbery. Stay on the ground and live." (Don't say "citizen's arrest" or everyone including the BG will think you're an idiot.) He'll think I'm a COP and as Excaliber said, he probably won't be as willing to get up.
Chas.