Texas Open Carry – Positive

[srothstein]

Licensed rights are not rights, they are permissions. That is my other point.

Anygunanywhere

Thats jingoistic nonsense. You have to have a license to march in a parade, to vote etc. etc. Do you not support voting either?

This is not a true statement. I do not need a license to vote, I simply must register my intent to do so in advance. The state cannot deny me the registration if I am a US citizen and a resident of the area I intend to vote in. I also do not need a license to march in a parade. Some areas (and not all) require a license to organize a parade, but that is more along the lines of closing the streets for the march and having someone to bill for the extra police officers. There have been several court cases showing the city cannot deny the license to organize the parade and hold it without extreme cause.

Having a permit stating that "gee yes I am in fact legally able to purchase a firearm" is not a permission. We have open borders here with lots of illegal firearms. Criminals don't have the right bear arms and this affirms they are not a criminal.

If you make the permit a shall issue with no other clauses than eligible to own a weapon, you may be correct. But I am also not sure you are correct that criminals do not have a right to bear arms. I have yet to find anything in the Constitution that allows any right to be taken away simply based on a criminal conviction, not the right to bear arms or the right to vote.

[srothstein]

I have notices several people who have proposed open carry with a local option clause. In addition to knowing how local option elections work in the alcoholic beverage industry, I have to ask if this is really a good idea.

First, it would take a change to the Texas Constitution. While this is done way more often than it really should be (shwoing how poorly written the document is), I am usually opposed to changes that require that large a modification.

Second, and more importantly, are you really sure you want to open that can of worms? Think real hard about it. If we let cities regulate open carry, there is no valid argument to stop them from regulating concealed carry also.

[cbr600]

I have notices several people who have proposed open carry with a local option clause. In addition to knowing how local option elections work in the alcoholic beverage industry, I have to ask if this is really a good idea.

It makes as much sense as making it a local option whether Democrats get to vote.

[cbr600]

What state are you from that requires a license to vote? :-/

Argh another post eaten. To paraphrase

Texas does. You have to register to vote. That and the proposed OC badge, would certify that you have the legal capacity to perform the capacity you propose to do, ie meet the minimum criteria to exercise your constitutional right.

That sounds great! Send in a postcard sized application and a week or two later you get your voter registration card. That allows you to vote for any candidate (SA/NSA/NFA) and you can keep your vote private (CC) or tell everyone (OC) how you voted. You can vote in schools and your employer can't prevent you from voting and...

IT'S FREE!

[03Lightningrocks]

Truth is, you do have to be registered to vote and you cannot vote if your a convicted felon. Hmmm...seems our rights may not all be absolute. If they were, I could just run down and vote at will...no registration needed.

[anygunanywhere]

Truth is, you do have to be registered to vote and you cannot vote if your a convicted felon. Hmmm...seems our rights may not all be absolute. If they were, I could just run down and vote at will...no registration needed.

The constitution and BOR validate the fact that governments exist at the will of the people.

The government that we allow to exist creates rules and permissions for us to exercise the rights that God gave us, rights that the government believes that they can regulate.

The rights are not absolute because the government tells you they are not.

Anygunanywhere

[boomerang]

If society can't trust someone to keep and bear arms then we surely can't trust them with the vote.

[frazzled]

This is not a true statement. I do not need a license to vote, I simply must register my intent to do so in advance. The state cannot deny me the registration if I am a US citizen and a resident of the area I intend to vote in. I also do not need a license to march in a parade. Some areas (and not all) require a license to organize a parade, but that is more along the lines of closing the streets for the march and having someone to bill for the extra police officers. There have been several court cases showing the city cannot deny the license to organize the parade and hold it without extreme cause.

A license is a form of registration. Thats effectively what I am saying withb the OC license.
Now you're getting the limited intent of my OC badge. Its stating you have the legal capacity to have bought that firearm. Its as simple as that.

[frazzled]

My post with bolds you referenced.
*To utilize your rights to OC, a permit is required. To obtain a permit you must be capable of legally purchasing a firearm in Texas (potential thought that any actual OC implement must have been acquired by said person).
Intent and reasoning: This will mitigate the fear that persons who obtained weapons illegally, are mentally defective etc will be walking around with OC.
*Carrying of a weapon without an OC permit, CHL permit, or otherwise permitted under law will result in a CLASS A FELONY.
Intent and reasoning: This provides incentive for those to abide by the requirements of OC and keeps OC out of the hands of nutjobs, criminals intent on mischief, and macho wannabees. I

With that said, I would like to better understand the concerns bolded above; and to help me understand the concerns better I would like to address this with an analogy if I may. To my understanding of the current state laws for long guns, it would be legal for me or anyone else in the state to: Dress up like Rambo with a black muscle shirt, camo pants, black surplus jungle boots, red scarf around my head, loaded AR-15 on one shoulder, loaded pump shotgun with pistol grip on the other shoulder, carrying a loaded BMG 50 cal rifle, with full ammo bandoliers crossing my chest. I’m guessing most would consider this a macho wannabee, nutjob or worse. However, even though it would be legal, I have not seen anyone running around like this. Since this does not appear to be an issue with long guns, is it reasonable in infer it probably will not be an issue with hand guns? Note that I am not saying it will never happen (the long gun example that is currently legal); I’m just trying to understand if it is a real issue or really just an outlier.

I think you answered the difference
1. People carrying long guns generally do so in the country or in some legal firearms related activity. Walking down downtown Houston dressed as above will garner an immediate heavily armed response.
2. That’s the concern, and why I initially said no local infringement of the long guns side. However, there are macho and criminal elements out there.
Criminal element. The badge will help mitigate. The concern is that 1) the gyuy with the gun is a bad guy. 2) people legally utilizing their rights don’t want to be harassed by the police. This badge helps mitigate. Obviously it only helps.
Macho wannabees are one thing, but it helps if they can legally carry.

Class A Felony. I believe in harsh penalties for clear laws. Someone illegally carrying a gun should pay for that. If we have availability under OC, CHL, and current laws (transporting in car etc.) there is no reason a reasonable citizen is hampered. Therefore, if you’re illegally carrying at that point-you deserve to be hammered.

[frazzled]

I have notices several people who have proposed open carry with a local option clause. In addition to knowing how local option elections work in the alcoholic beverage industry, I have to ask if this is really a good idea.

It makes as much sense as making it a local option whether Democrats get to vote.

Its appropriate. Regulation started with the municipalities. If you want their support they have to be able to modify as their local electorate desires or you won't get that support. To win you need the support of Houston, Dallas/FW, San Antonio, Austin, and El Paso.

All or nothing will lead to what you've received to date. Nothing.

[will381796]

I was being facetious when I suggested a badge of some sort. We are not LEO and it is possible that the badge would somehow identify us as being a LOE in some people's eyes. Also, I'm sure there are some stupid people out there that might pick up their gun, pin on their OC badge, and go stomping around looking for trouble because they've got a "badge." And I would be very much against any type of ID card to wear when open carrying. This is not Nazi Germany or the communist Soviet Union. I don't feel the need to wear something identifying myself and what I am at all times to those in authority.

Like you said: if we're able to legally purchase a gun, then we should be able to OC. No badge or visible ID should be required. Bad guys simply will NOT open carry because they don't want the added scrutiny from law enforcement. It just won't happen.

If government agencies would report those mentally unstable as required, then they won't be able to pass the NICS check and won't be able to legally purchase a gun. People with certain criminal records can't buy a gun. Felons can't buy a gun. So what's the point of the permit/license again?

[frazzled]

Respectfully,

You are assuming the person carrying has obtained that weapon legally. I would not make that assumption. This helps avoid police who will make ths same assumption.

(edited for spelling)

No its no commuist Russia. But you still can't OC here EITHER. If you want to change it, it has to get passed.

[will381796]

And, respectfully, as I said before, a person illegally carrying a weapon is not going to carry it out in the open. They are not going to open themselves up to more scrutiny and more eyes on their actions.

And quite frankly, if they are not supposed to have that gun I could care less. So long as their gun is holstered I'll have mine on my side to keep me safe if they decide to joke around.

The point of contention seems to be on people that might be illegally carrying a weapon in the open. I'd be more concerned about people illegally carrying concealed.

[frazzled]

You have a point there. How would you minimize police investigating OC'rs to see if they are legal?

[will381796]

You have a point there. How would you minimize police investigating OC'rs to see if they are legal?

No investigation of OC'rs is needed at all if there's no licensing/permitting. If having the weapon holstered in the open is legal for everyone (LOE or otherwise), then there's nothing for LOE to check on unless that person is seen committing a crime. Treat them no differently than everyone walking down the streets with cell phones in their little holsters.