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Bob in Big D wrote:I think that is the point of this thread. Understanding what the policy is, and how we as CHL's can help influence that policy. We could be getting a bum rap or...... DPS has confiscated a large amount of stolen guns. The point is we don't know and until we do it is what it is. So we adhere to the orders of the LEO or suffer the consequences.

I prefer to think...
We adhere to the legal, morel and ethical orders from a LEO, or invest our time, money, freedom if so required to see that wrongs are righted...

You said it better..

I guess one can just flash their CHL badge and all is good

mikedude wrote:I guess one can just flash their CHL badge and all is good

Makes as much sense as LEO's treating a citizen as a thief, with no PC or RS that they have stolen anything. Or treating them like a violent criminal, when they have not committed a violent crime.

Im very ok with LEO having a legal right to disarm a CHL'er when needed.
Im not ok with them doing it, because it's thursday.. or because I had a tail light out... because I called 911 to report a crime.. or well because of anything other them presenting a articulable threat to the LEO's life. A THREAT,, an actual threat.. Not the possibility of a threat, but a tangible threat.

It's only a hard concept to grasp, for some of those on the other side of the blue line......The STATS show... CHL's are not a general threat to a LEO during a contact.... but, hey, lets not let tangible facts get in the way of paranoia.

E.Marquez wrote:

mikedude wrote:I guess one can just flash their CHL badge and all is good

Makes as much sense as LEO's treating a citizen as a thief, with no PC or RS that they have stolen anything. Or treating them like a violent criminal, when they have not committed a violent crime.

Im very ok with LEO having a legal right to disarm a CHL'er when needed.
Im not ok with them doing it, because it's thursday.. or because I had a tail light out... because I called 911 to report a crime.. or well because of anything other them presenting a articulable threat to the LEO's life. A THREAT,, an actual threat.. Not the possibility of a threat, but a tangible threat.

It's only a hard concept to grasp, for some of those on the other side of the blue line......The STATS show... CHL's are not a general threat to a LEO during a contact.... but, hey, lets not let tangible facts get in the way of paranoia.

Gotta disagree to a point. IF I fear for my safety, and have a lawful detention I am taking the gun. This is not being scared, but something one that is not a LEO cannot understand. That is the nature of the work. I will not wait until there is an actual threat to my safety as that will be too late. You can be sure I will be able to articulate the facts and probably have video/audio of the contact as well. Downside is I will be second guessed on internet forums by people that were not there . I get paid to do a job and go home to our families. I have been in a fatal shooting and let me tell you it goes from talking to shooting in the blink of an eye, heck faster sometimes. As a reminder I have NEVER taken a chl holders gun in TWO states that I have worked.

For the most part we are on the same page here.

mikedude wrote:

E.Marquez wrote:

mikedude wrote:I guess one can just flash their CHL badge and all is good

Makes as much sense as LEO's treating a citizen as a thief, with no PC or RS that they have stolen anything. Or treating them like a violent criminal, when they have not committed a violent crime.

Im very ok with LEO having a legal right to disarm a CHL'er when needed.
Im not ok with them doing it, because it's thursday.. or because I had a tail light out... because I called 911 to report a crime.. or well because of anything other them presenting a articulable threat to the LEO's life. A THREAT,, an actual threat.. Not the possibility of a threat, but a tangible threat.

It's only a hard concept to grasp, for some of those on the other side of the blue line......The STATS show... CHL's are not a general threat to a LEO during a contact.... but, hey, lets not let tangible facts get in the way of paranoia.

Gotta disagree to a point. IF I fear for my safety, and have a lawful detention I am taking the gun. This is not being scared, but something one that is not a LEO cannot understand. That is the nature of the work. I will not wait until there is an actual threat to my safety as that will be too late. You can be sure I will be able to articulate the facts and probably have video/audio of the contact as well. Downside is I will be second guessed on internet forums by people that were not there . I get paid to do a job and go home to our families. I have been in a fatal shooting and let me tell you it goes from talking to shooting in the blink of an eye, heck faster sometimes. As a reminder I have NEVER taken a chl holders gun in TWO states that I have worked.

For the most part we are on the same page here.

Actually I do know what it's like....., several dozens of times over, vice once in a career at most for the general LEO group..

But that aside,, Yes I think we are on the same page.. By actual threat I did not mean, a overt physical action only... I understand and get a decision based on the whole of the situation.. and I would not want less for our LEO's..

I think the discussion is aimed at a minority.. be it a minority of departments that direct it, or minority of LEO's that make the individual decision to disarm as a routine and run serial numbers, just because they can.

As I have averaged only 1 LEO contact in an official capacity per 11 years after age 18.... I may never get to see what really happens when stopped for an infraction and disarmed..

E.Marquez wrote:

mikedude wrote:

E.Marquez wrote:

mikedude wrote:I guess one can just flash their CHL badge and all is good

Makes as much sense as LEO's treating a citizen as a thief, with no PC or RS that they have stolen anything. Or treating them like a violent criminal, when they have not committed a violent crime.

Im very ok with LEO having a legal right to disarm a CHL'er when needed.
Im not ok with them doing it, because it's thursday.. or because I had a tail light out... because I called 911 to report a crime.. or well because of anything other them presenting a articulable threat to the LEO's life. A THREAT,, an actual threat.. Not the possibility of a threat, but a tangible threat.

It's only a hard concept to grasp, for some of those on the other side of the blue line......The STATS show... CHL's are not a general threat to a LEO during a contact.... but, hey, lets not let tangible facts get in the way of paranoia.

Gotta disagree to a point. IF I fear for my safety, and have a lawful detention I am taking the gun. This is not being scared, but something one that is not a LEO cannot understand. That is the nature of the work. I will not wait until there is an actual threat to my safety as that will be too late. You can be sure I will be able to articulate the facts and probably have video/audio of the contact as well. Downside is I will be second guessed on internet forums by people that were not there . I get paid to do a job and go home to our families. I have been in a fatal shooting and let me tell you it goes from talking to shooting in the blink of an eye, heck faster sometimes. As a reminder I have NEVER taken a chl holders gun in TWO states that I have worked.

For the most part we are on the same page here.

Actually I do know what it's like....., several dozens of times over, vice once in a career at most for the general LEO group..

But that aside,, Yes I think we are on the same page.. By actual threat I did not mean, a overt physical action only... I understand and get a decision based on the whole of the situation.. and I would not want less for our LEO's..

I think the discussion is aimed at a minority.. be it a minority of departments that direct it, or minority of LEO's that make the individual decision to disarm as a routine and run serial numbers, just because they can.

As I have averaged only 1 LEO contact in an official capacity per 11 years after age 18.... I may never get to see what really happens when stopped for an infraction and disarmed..

U lost me there. Are u a LEO, or just somebody that has been stopped many times or what we would call a "frequent flyer."

A couple of things, the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) is federal. State requests fall under the Open Records Act. Regardless, if it looks and smells like an ORA request, the agency must honor the request. You are requesting documents and not research. They don't have to compile statistics for you. If it is not in the documents you requested, you won't get it. Be specific in the documents you request or they won't be found. Also, you do not have to justify why you want the documents and they can't ask. None of their business. Tell them it is an Open Records Request and you want copies of the documents listed or documents containing <content description> or similar.

GrillKing wrote:A couple of things, the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) is federal. State requests fall under the Open Records Act. Regardless, if it looks and smells like an ORA request, the agency must honor the request. You are requesting documents and not research. They don't have to compile statistics for you. If it is not in the documents you requested, you won't get it. Be specific in the documents you request or they won't be found. Also, you do not have to justify why you want the documents and they can't ask. None of their business. Tell them it is an Open Records Request and you want copies of the documents listed or documents containing <content description> or similar.

If they do refuse, the attorney general is the recourse. They handle those complaints all the time.

E.Marquez wrote: Actually I do know what it's like....., several dozens of times over, vice once in a career at most for the general LEO group..

mikedude wrote:U lost me there. Are u a LEO, or just somebody that has been stopped many times or what we would call a "frequent flyer."

I believe he means that as a combat soldier he's been in that situation many times.

mikedude wrote:This is not being scared, but something one that is not a LEO cannot understand.

Not correct in MY opinion.. there are other persons (jobs) that deal with contacting potentially dangerous individuals.

mikedude wrote: I get paid to do a job and go home to our families.

Well,. no you get paid to do the job.. going home to your family is what you want , and what every person that leaves for work wants.. you as a LEO want, desire, or deserve it no more then the ER doc, or the garbage man just because you are a LEO.

mikedude wrote: I have been in a fatal shooting and let me tell you it goes from talking to shooting in the blink of an eye, heck faster sometimes.

Actually I do know what it's like....., several dozens of times over, vice once in a career at most for the general LEO group..

But that aside,, Yes I think we are on the same page.. By actual threat I did not mean, a overt physical action only... I understand and get a decision based on the whole of the situation.. and I would not want less for our LEO's..

And no, Im not a LEO.
And no as stated,, since age 18, I have been in contact with a LEO due to an infraction less then once per 11 years... so not a frequent flyer.

GrillKing wrote:A couple of things, the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) is federal. State requests fall under the Open Records Act. Regardless, if it looks and smells like an ORA request, the agency must honor the request. You are requesting documents and not research. They don't have to compile statistics for you. If it is not in the documents you requested, you won't get it. Be specific in the documents you request or they won't be found. Also, you do not have to justify why you want the documents and they can't ask. None of their business. Tell them it is an Open Records Request and you want copies of the documents listed or documents containing <content description> or similar.

Thank you.

I'll have to research the correct documents to request then..
What I want to see,, is how many guns have been seized from a CHL... I realize this data will include those that deserve to have the gun sized, due to them committing a crime.. like DUI, assault, domestic violence, ect What I want may not be possible..... without requesting thousands of pages, and sifting through them to compile the data. Possible more then i can do.. We will see.

E.Marquez wrote:

GrillKing wrote:A couple of things, the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) is federal. State requests fall under the Open Records Act. Regardless, if it looks and smells like an ORA request, the agency must honor the request. You are requesting documents and not research. They don't have to compile statistics for you. If it is not in the documents you requested, you won't get it. Be specific in the documents you request or they won't be found. Also, you do not have to justify why you want the documents and they can't ask. None of their business. Tell them it is an Open Records Request and you want copies of the documents listed or documents containing <content description> or similar.

Thank you.

I'll have to research the correct documents to request then..
What I want to see,, is how many guns have been seized from a CHL... I realize this data will include those that deserve to have the gun sized, due to them committing a crime.. like DUI, assault, domestic violence, ect What I want may not be possible..... without requesting thousands of pages, and sifting through them to compile the data. Possible more then i can do.. We will see.

That would be an interesting read. I would bet if it was bad, the liberal media would already have it. You might try and find out about revocations of CHL holders and why. Those stats might be shorter and a start.

Maybe all you need is ....how many guns taken from CHL's were found to be stolen when run thu NCIC, regardless of how they were acquired by DPS.

Bob in Big D wrote:Maybe all you need is ....how many guns taken from CHL's were found to be stolen when run thu NCIC, regardless of how they were acquired by DPS.

Right,, but if it a document request that must be made, and not a data request.. I would have to request a specific document that would have that data.... What single document is that....???