e-mail from student about road raging motorcyclist

[Abraham]

I've owned more than one motorcycle, scooter, plenty of cars and trucks, and bicycles.

I drive defensively no matter what I drive or peddle.

On my mountain bike, while traveling on the road, I'm even less observable than a motorcyclist and yet no one's hit me and I put in thousands of miles annually. This, of course is not for their inadvertent lack of trying... Do I get upset when some inattentive driver almost kills me? I used to. I'm a bit more philosophical now. I EXPECT vehicle drivers to be blundering and careless and drive/peddle accordingly...

Self righteous anger regarding careless vehicle drivers will do no good. No one made you get on a motorcycle.

Understand, when on a two wheel contraption, you're MUCH more at risk then driving a four wheel vehicle and quit sniveling about it.

Grin and bear it or stay off motorcycles.

[AlaskanInTexas]

And with that I bid all a good day..... Im going to go ride my bike now.. chances are,, I will have to avoid a rude or dangerous driver in the next few hours....

Just use the shoulder like the other bikers and you won't have to worry about cars.

[E.Marquez]

And with that I bid all a good day..... Im going to go ride my bike now.. chances are,, I will have to avoid a rude or dangerous driver in the next few hours....

Just use the shoulder like the other bikers and you won't have to worry about cars.

Must be a DFW thing.. not seen that where I live...

but hey, I rode 38 miles and only one texting 20 something woman tried to place her car on top of my this afternoon. I communicated my displeasure,, she appeared to say "sorry" if I did my lip reading correctly.

To the poster above.. you misunderstand.. it's not sniveling at the increased dangers of riding being discussed.. (perceived by you perhaps, but thats on you) It's the quite real observations that car drivers often do create unsafe events to which the bike has little recourse. These events are unnecessary and caused solely by the poor driving and attitude of said drivers.


IN an hour I'll ride home..... if I don't post in three,,,it's because the wait in the ER is longer then normal,

[suthdj]

If you don't like the way I drive stay off the sidewalks

[Abraham]

E.Marquez,

My 'sniveling' remark was rhetorical.

I too have been a sniveler, if you will, regarding cell phone/drivers too, but my complaint about them seemed to fall on deaf ears. I'm guessing because most everyone drives and uses them to the utter disregard of how dangerous it is to others. I've finally come to expect it. That's just how it is...

Except for one small stretch, I've no shoulder to peddle on while grinding out my bicycle mileage. So, when on the road, I stay as far to the right as is possible and constantly check my bar end mirror. If an upcoming vehicle appears to be operated by a blithering idiot cell phone user I peddle off the road until said goober passes me...

Also, I wonder why motorcyclists seem to expect four wheel vehicles to respect their place on the road and act outraged when they don't. Why they don't simply understand it's NEVER going to happen, expect the worst and quit bellyaching about it?

[gemini]

...................................
Also, I wonder why motorcyclists seem to expect four wheel vehicles to respect their place on the road and act outraged when they don't. Why they don't simply understand it's NEVER going to happen, expect the worst and quit bellyaching about it?

Not sure if outraged is the correct term, but whatever. I expect four wheeled vehicles to respect their (2 wheelers) place on the road; for the same reason I expect them to respect your bike, my car, a truck or any other legal vehicle using the roadway. I expect drivers to be paying attention to the task at hand, controlling the vehicle. Using just a small amount of common courtesy. Maybe through education and some public awareness it MIGHT begin to happen. And, most riders I know do expect the worst, and those expectations are met on a daily basis. My question is why would you resist driving in a safer manner? Why would you not respect a 2 wheelers place on the road? Especially if you had ever actually ridden a bike for any length of time? I know lots of guys that "own" bikes.....but they don't ride.

To those that have posted "I used to ride", or "I rode 30+ years ago", or any of that "back in the day stuff": join the club. But I can guarantee
you riding in the mid-late '60's, 70's and 80's doesn't compare to the distractions,traffic or aggression on todays streets. I was riding Honda 65's
and 90's in the mid 60's. Mostly city travel. Yea, you had to be careful then too.

[Dadtodabone]

The last time I operated a motorcycle, I was on my brand new, root beer brown with orange pinstripes KZ900. The last time I saw my brand new, root beer brown with orange pinstripes KZ900 was as I slid down AZ 260 and my brand new, root beer brown with orange pinstripes KZ900 became airborne after sliding of the edge of the Mogollon Rim.
No cell phone, no make up, no burrito, no kids yelling or crying, no radio to adjust, no inattention. It was Bambi, his mother, a few of his cousins and for all I know Thumper and Flower were in the mix, standing in the middle of the freaking highway just beyond the apex of a curve in the road.
I have a picture of my brand new, root beer brown with orange pinstripes KZ900 taken just an hour before we parted ways. It was taken by my FIL as my wife (did I mention that she was with me?) and I departed the Swiss Village Lodge in Payson AZ on a scenic tour of Zane Grey country.
The picture of my brand new, root beer brown with orange pinstripes KZ900 is pretty worn and faded now. I've carried it in my pocket every Deer Hunting Season since 1977 in 6 states, 3 countries, 2 continents.
My wife says I am obsessed, that my behavior as I dance in the light of my campfire, the warm blood running down my chin and onto my chest as I savor the rich taste of Bambi's liver, is borderline crazy. What does she know? Did she ever own a brand new, root beer brown with orange pinstripes KZ900? No!

[The Annoyed Man]

The last time I operated a motorcycle, I was on my brand new, root beer brown with orange pinstripes KZ900. The last time I saw my brand new, root beer brown with orange pinstripes KZ900 was as I slid down AZ 260 and my brand new, root beer brown with orange pinstripes KZ900 became airborne after sliding of the edge of the Mogollon Rim.
No cell phone, no make up, no burrito, no kids yelling or crying, no radio to adjust, no inattention. It was Bambi, his mother, a few of his cousins and for all I know Thumper and Flower were in the mix, standing in the middle of the freaking highway just beyond the apex of a curve in the road.
I have a picture of my brand new, root beer brown with orange pinstripes KZ900 taken just an hour before we parted ways. It was taken by my FIL as my wife (did I mention that she was with me?) and I departed the Swiss Village Lodge in Payson AZ on a scenic tour of Zane Grey country.
The picture of my brand new, root beer brown with orange pinstripes KZ900 is pretty worn and faded now. I've carried it in my pocket every Deer Hunting Season since 1977 in 6 states, 3 countries, 2 continents.
My wife says I am obsessed, that my behavior as I dance in the light of my campfire, the warm blood running down my chin and onto my chest as I savor the rich taste of Bambi's liver, is borderline crazy. What does she know? Did she ever own a brand new, root beer brown with orange pinstripes KZ900? No!

My brother from another mother!

[poppo]

I don't text or talk on the phone when I drive. I consider myself a "good" driver and have not had an accident in nearly 40 years. As I mentioned earlier, I have been guilty of changing lanes when there was a motorcycle there. It has nothing to do with a motorcycle not "registering" in the brain. I have checked my mirror, had it clear, and in the second or two that I look forward again and start to change lanes, had a motorcycle dart over to that side, or come screaming up from behind the car that was behind me where I would not have been able to see it. The point is that often motorcycle drivers either intentionally or not, put themselves in an unavoidable situation. BTW, I rode a motorcycle for quite a few years in the 70s & 80s, and have had my fair share of close calls. Some which I will admit were more my fault than the car.

A lot has been said about no excuse for the bike rider acting the way he did by "assaulting" the car driver. But what if the car driver had cut off the bike driver and nearly killed him? Why can the bike rider not consider himself being assaulted and then defend himself? And how should he do it? If a car cuts off a motorcycle and the motorcycle driver feels that his life is in danger, can he pull out his gun and start shooting at the car, or point it at the car driver? Going by the arguments people have used to justify what the car driver did, then that should also be ok.

The bottom line is we don't know both sides of the story, but I seriously doubt the bike driver just randomly decided to chase down this particular car for no reason. If he was nearly hit and killed, what was he supposed to do? And if anyone says he could/should have called and reported the car driver, well, the car driver could/should have done the same thing instead of doing the brake slam thing, which only further escalated the situation. IMO there is plenty of blame to go around on BOTH sides.

[RX8er]

Don't bicyclists have to follow the same laws as autos and motorcycles? It aggravates me when a cyclist is in the middle of the road but they have a right to be there just like a car. When I ride, I stay as far to the right as I can without getting in to the rocks and trash.

I've also seen a cyclist ride between cars at red lights up to a truck and punch the window. Had something in his hand and the window shattered. Guess that truck will think twice about picking on a cyclist. The cyclist then turned around and made a hasty retreat. Don't know what happened before hand though.

[gringo pistolero]

If the person that is cut off is riding a bike or driving a car does not matter, it is rude and really pisses people off. THAT does not give anyone the excuse to chase someone down and assault the car

There's also no excuse for drivers to use their car or truck to commit assault because they think they can get away with it.

[jmra]

If the person that is cut off is riding a bike or driving a car does not matter, it is rude and really pisses people off. THAT does not give anyone the excuse to chase someone down and assault the car

There's also no excuse for drivers to use their car or truck to commit assault because they think they can get away with it.

Show me where in the penal code not seeing some one when you change lanes is assault.

[gringo pistolero]

Show me a year this century where people in cars and trucks haven't used their vehicle to threaten people on bicycles and motorcycles, and people driving big cars and trucks haven't threatened people driving compact cars.

[Jumping Frog]

A lot has been said about no excuse for the bike rider acting the way he did by "assaulting" the car driver. But what if the car driver had cut off the bike driver and nearly killed him? Why can the bike rider not consider himself being assaulted and then defend himself? And how should he do it? If a car cuts off a motorcycle and the motorcycle driver feels that his life is in danger, can he pull out his gun and start shooting at the car, or point it at the car driver? Going by the arguments people have used to justify what the car driver did, then that should also be ok.

No, major fail in the justification logic.

Remember the whole premise of necessity:

PC §9.22. NECESSITY. Conduct is justified if: (1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct is immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm;

You said, "Why can the bike rider not consider himself being assaulted and then defend himself?"

There is a difference between retribution and self defense.

If I cut you off once and then proceed down the road without further attempts to injure you, you have possibly been assaulted (past tense), but you are not being assaulted (present tense). If I am no longer aiming my car at you and trying to hurt you, then there is no imminent harm for you to defend against. The proper solution for actions in the past is to call the police and press charges, not whip out your roscoe and start blazing away.

Also, remember that I may have initiated the encounter when I originally cut you off. However, when you catch up with me a mile down the road, I have obviously "abandoned the encounter". If you use force against me at that time, you will be considered the aggressor and I will be the one legally justified in defending myself with appropriate force. Recall PC §9.31(b)(4).

PC §9.31(b)(4) if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force, unless:
(A) the actor abandons the encounter, or clearly communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing he cannot safely abandon the encounter; and
(B) the other nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful force against the actor;

[poppo]

Also, remember that I may have initiated the encounter when I originally cut you off. However, when you catch up with me a mile down the road, I have obviously "abandoned the encounter".

But when you intentionally brake slam, and create a second assault.....

I'm not disagreeing with all of what you said. However, the driver did not have to stop (especially the way he did). For all we know the motorcycle just happened to be going the same way.

I wonder if the driver would have acted the same way had he not been armed. Unfortunately some people seem to look for encounters (or don't try to avoid them) just because they are carrying.

I'm also interested to hear the stories behind the person who said they had to pull their gun 4 or 5 times.

In any case, I still think this is a case where both parties were at fault.