TexasCHLforum.com

Long story short: A Pennsylvania man, Brian P. Fentiman, age 50, was driving when he saw two men attacking two women. He stopped and got out of his vehicle. The attackers turned their attention on him. Mr. Fentimen drew his .45-caliber pistol and ordered the attackers to retreat.

“Mr. Need started coming up to me, waving his arms, and telling me to just shoot him… He kept coming, coming at me, that's when I fired my first shot into his thigh,� Says Fentiman. “He didn't stop. He got to me. He grabbed my shirt, ripped the top button, grabbed my arm, and that's when I shot him point blank, the second time, in the thigh…

The attacker died of blood loss from his femoral artery. Mr. Fentiman has the Pennsylvania equivalent of a CHL.

This incident occurred June 28.

Mr. Fentiman was arrested at the time, but prosecutors supported his self-defense claim. He was no-billed yesterday.

http://www.inyork.com/ci_9903852?source=most_viewed
http://www.whptv.com/news/local/story.a ... ef07258c22 (this article is badly written but contains the quote used above)

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:Mr. Need started coming up to me, waving his arms, and telling me to just shoot him… He kept coming, coming at me, that's when I fired my first shot into his thigh,� Says Fentiman. - Jim

Be careful of what you wish for.

Very ironic that Mr. Fentiman purposely shot the attacker in the thigh, which turned out to be fatal. It is good that he was no-billed, but bad that he was arrested.

Indeed, it's too bad he was arrested. But in a chaotic situation like that, with a dozen people telling different stories, the cops need to sort it out at the station.

The number of witnesses probably helped the self-defense case.

- Jim

He said:

"I was absolutely terrified. ... I just wanted to stop the guy," Fentiman said. "I didn't want to kill him."

So he shot the dude - twice - in the thigh. The first one was pretty good shooting - a deliberate shot at the thigh of a moving target rushing straight at him, and actually hitting it. The second shot... I'm not buying that he was trying to shoot the thigh again. Mind you, I don't blame him one bit for what he did. The guy's death is not on his hands. That being said, it is difficult to imagine that he's in a tussle this time, and gets a deliberate 2nd shot off to the thigh again. There was no way that 2nd shot was a properly aimed shot. Unless he was able to disengage and get some space between himself and the bad guy, I think he just fired, and fate sent that bullet where it went, deservedly killing the other guy.

I took note that, since he was firing a pistol chambered in .45 ACP and I also carry a .45, the caliber was not enough to disable the attacker on the first round with a shot to the thigh. Others have posted in other threads, although I've never seen this happen myself, that a first shot to the COM with a .45 is not always enough to stop the threat. But even if that is so, it is probably more likely to be effective on the first round than a shot to the thigh - assuming you even have the time to make an aimed shot to the thigh. Lord, please preserve me from ever having to shoot someone. But if I have to, I'm never going to attempt something crazy like just trying to shoot the legs out from under him. Too much can go wrong if you don't get it right.

Also, from the standpoint of Mr. Fentiman, who says he is now remorseful and has seen a psychiatrist, if he had hit the BG once in the chest, he might have not only stopped the attack, but if he didn't kill him with that shot, the BG might still be alive today instead of bled out from a ruptured femoral artery. My point is that, once you have felt the need to draw your weapon and fire it at someone, you are beyond the point of caring about the other guy's "humanity." What you feel afterward is a different story. I might have issues myself. But while you're in the thick of it, you shoot at the easiest thing to hit - his center of mass. There were other people in the area that night, BTW. What if his thigh shot had missed and he had hit someone else unintentionally? What if it was a through and through wound, and the bullet hit somebody? Center of mass is the only target that makes sense to me in a situation like that.

Just my 2¢.

No one knows how he will react in such a violent, chaotic situation, unless he has already been there. I haven't.

- Jim

No-billed. Just like he should have been.

In all of these scenarios, I look to learn from them to help me if I ever get into a situation. Now, as I understand Texas law, would I be correct in saying that firing that first warning shot at his thigh would have been illegal in Texas? From my understanding, Texas does not grant you an ability to fire a warning shot. I'll have to go look up the exact wording of the law, but this was brought up in a class, and I'm pretty sure that the instructor said that "warning shots" are not legal.

I don't see it as a warning shot. It was meant to stop the assailant. It just didn't work as well as planned.

The Texas DPS teaches Stop, Control, Neutralize as three levels of increasing lethality. With no mention of warning shots. During the initial instructor class, there were reasons given for not firing warning shots. Among those, because most warning shots would not hit the attacker, or stop traveling until they hit something unintended. The shooter is liable for misses, and any secondary casualties.
First shots center of mass. That serves as a warning that if the assailant does not stop, he will be shot again. Until the defender has either stopped, reached a level of control, or neutralized the threat.

BigBlueDodge wrote:Now, as I understand Texas law, would I be correct in saying that firing that first warning shot at his thigh would have been illegal in Texas? From my understanding, Texas does not grant you an ability to fire a warning shot. I'll have to go look up the exact wording of the law, but this was brought up in a class, and I'm pretty sure that the instructor said that "warning shots" are not legal.

Texas law does not refer to "warning shots." If you point a firearm at a person without justification, it is deadly conduct. If you fire at a person, even if you miss, it is assault or aggravated assault.

This was a very dicey situation in terms of justification. Of course, it's difficult to understand all the facts based on a news story. I would like to be able to read the police reports.

It seems these elements must have persuaded the grand jury:

"In the meantime ... (Need's passenger) was just absolutely going nuts," at other people standing there, he said. Camacho said that passenger's name is Fred Minnich, and that he was brandishing some type of knife.

Death threats: Need came back out, and he and Minnich started arguing with two men who'd gotten out of a pickup truck, saying they had guns and were going to kill the men, Fentiman said.

"I don't have any explanation for why Mr. Need did this, but ... he ran over to my car," Fentiman said, and started pounding on the windows, maybe trying to get inside.

"My fiancee was in the car," he said. "That's when I drew my weapon."

The last part, pounding on the car windows, would have fallen under Texas castle doctrine. I don't know the specifics of Pennsylvania law.

- Jim

I'm glad he was no billed, that was the correct call. However, as for the first shot in the thigh, I agree with another poster, that was a great shot. Personally, if the situation calls for me to draw my weapon, I'm not going to gamble on a warning shot. My instructor taught me to have a fairly high threshold to draw. if you have to draw, be prepared to shoot, and if you have to shoot, don't miss. I will not gamble on a "shot to wound" that would endanger other witnesses if I missed. The other thing is, I would never let the BG get close enough to grab me. OK, please tell me if I'm wrong.

Shooting someone in an appendage is not a good idea, legally or tactically. It most certainly is not a warning.

Others have posted in other threads, although I've never seen this happen myself, that a first shot to the COM with a .45 is not always enough to stop the threat.

Here's one example:

http://forum.cygnus-study.com/showthread.php?t=3785

This one happened in North Fort Myers a few miles from where I was living at the time. Although this article doesn't provide some details, as I remember it the subject who struggled with and injured the defender did so after receiving a nonsurvivable wound to the aorta as one of his multiple gunshot injuries from the intended victim's .45ACP pistol. The other subject who fled received multiple wounds to the torso and leg, including one which broke a leg bone. Ammunition was .45ACP FMJ. Law enforcement officials later advised the victim to use hollowpoint ammunition for defensive purposes.

First-person account of the defender:
http://ydr.inyork.com/ci_10219218?source=most_emailed

This is a newspaper web site. IMHO, it's likely that they confirmed the identity of the writer.

- Jim

Here's an article written by the gentleman that was involved in the shooting. It's a very compelling story. I've always heard there are three sides to a story. Here's his.

http://ydr.inyork.com/ci_10219218?source=most_emailed