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You will recall that in June of this year, two young girls were shot to death in a remote area in Oklahoma.

One of the two weapons used was .40 caliber.

Police went to all the FFLs in the area and requested information on anyone who had purchased a .40-cal. pistol. They obtained the names of more than 60 purchasers.

Police then sent letters requesting that the pistol owners submit their weapons for voluntary ballistic testing.

About 40 complied. Five had sold their pistols and provided the buyers' names.

Police will investigate the 15 owners who did not respond to the initial letter.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article. ... SBIa443762

I don't understand. If you don't have something to hide, what are you afraid of?

- Jim

Police went to all the FFls in the area and requested information on anyone who had purchased a .40-cal. pistol. They obtained the names of more than 60 purchasers.

Is this legal? I thought only the ATF could review FFL records and then there were very specific guidelines - no fishing expeditions or such.

I don't know all the ins and outs of FFL confidentiality.

In general, anyone can voluntarily disclose information. (There are exceptions such as medical records and juvenile records.)

The BATFE can demand the information without a warrant or subpeona.

Here's a U.S. Circuit Court case from 1995 that involved a similar situation:

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F ... -2124.html

The defendant was a felon who acquired a firearm from an FFL (he had pawned it and redeemed it). A probation officer who was investigating a rumor or tip found out about it, and the man was ultimately convicted of federal offenses of felon in possession of a firearm and lying on the form 4473.

Part of his appeal was that the probation officer should have been prohibited from examining the 4473. His appeal was rejected.

- Jim

Call me a skeptic but, when a government agency goes on a fishing trip by asking for information from a group of people I'm reminded of the British police going door to door asking for DNA to locate a serial killer. If you volunteered the information it went into a perminate database that could be used againt you later or If you refused you were automatically placed under suspicion.

I don't understand. If you don't have something to hide, what are you afraid of?

If a law enforcement officer were to say this to me I would liken it to the Brady Campaign saying

It's for the children

Let the flaming begin

Get a warrant.

Warrants need Probable Cause.

Do the work and if no PC too bad.

Ballistic testing is NOT as accurate as CSI tv portrays.

ANygunanywhere

CHL/LEO wrote:

Police went to all the FFls in the area and requested information on anyone who had purchased a .40-cal. pistol. They obtained the names of more than 60 purchasers.

Is this legal? I thought only the ATF could review FFL records and then there were very specific guidelines - no fishing expeditions or such.

I don't really know. I think the 4473 form can not be given/submitted to any governmental agency, but apparently its O.K. for law enforcement to access them.

I can tell you this much though, anyone coming to my house to "investigate" me based on nothing better than I own a .40 caliber weapon will get a really cool reception from me.

They basically have Zero leads to go on in this case. A white truck and a really bad rendering of a man....is about it, and thats just a guess.

I know they are frustrated, I know folks want the case solved (me too), but this is a veritable fishing tournament and guaranteed to be a colossal waste of everyones time.

The person (or persons) responsible for this heinous crime will not be caught until they slip up and talk about it to someone. There just isn't anything for the police to go on. Game over.

seamusTX wrote:You will recall that in June of this year, two young girls were shot to death in a remote area in Oklahoma.

One of the two weapons used was .40 caliber.

Police went to all the FFLs in the area and requested information on anyone who had purchased a .40-cal. pistol. They obtained the names of more than 60 purchasers.

Police then sent letters requesting that the pistol owners submit their weapons for voluntary ballistic testing.

About 40 complied. Five had sold their pistols and provided the buyers' names.

Police will investigate the 15 owners who did not respond to the initial letter.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article. ... SBIa443762

I don't understand. If you don't have something to hide, what are you afraid of?

- Jim

Jim, since the absence of probable cause satisfies you, where do you suggest that the line be drawn?

My question was facetious.

Blanket searches without probable cause lead to abuse. Maybe not always, and maybe not right away, but eventually it leads to ...

"Are you now or have you ever been a Communist?"

"Do you have any unauthorized Bibles?"

"Do you know the locations of any hidden Jews?"

"Hast thou dealt in witchcraft?"

- Jim

This is reason #1 why you should never buy from an FFL dealer. Can you guarantee that we'll never see true tyranny in this country?

drw wrote:This is reason #1 why you should never buy from an FFL dealer. Can you guarantee that we'll never see true tyranny in this country?

Personally, I think that if we were to ever see a day where true tyranny ruled this country, whether or not we have 4473s on file with an FFL will probably be the least of our worries.

seamusTX wrote:My question was facetious.

Blanket searches without probable cause lead to abuse. Maybe not always, and maybe not right away, but eventually it leads to ...

"Are you now or have you ever been a Communist?"

"Do you have any unauthorized Bibles?"

"Do you know the locations of any hidden Jews?"

"Hast thou dealt in witchcraft?"

- Jim

We're probably not too far apart on this, except that I don't think that it leads to abuse. I think it IS abuse.

"The other 15 or so gun owners who did not show up will be checked by the OSBI to see why they didn't volunteer for the test firings." - Guilt by association?

"They can have any number of reasons" for not volunteering, Brown said. "They could be against it, they could be anti-government, or they eventually may want to help." - After the beatings begin?

"Because the test firing of the weapons is voluntary, Brown said there isn't any constitutional violations involved." - Refusing has prompted additional questioning

"It's a process of elimination," she said, noting that the tested weapons may have been loaned out by the owners or someone else may have had access to the guns. - Why stop at gun owners? Why not start interviewing EVERYONE that lives within 50 miles of the crime? Talk to anyone that was driving on the road that day & anyone that madea cell ohone call from the area.

This is by far a huge mistake by the investigators. Whatever they may find, whoever they may charge has an open ticket to overturn by the appeals court.

The police can talk to anyone. That is normal police work.

The laws on cell phone records are complicated, but in general the police can obtain them legally in a way that would not be subject to 4th- or 5th-amendment challenges.

The problem is asking people to provide what could be evidence against themselves. As stated above, forensic ballistic testing is not perfect, and it's possible to get a false positive.

In any case, if the killer is among the people the police are questioning, he only has to say that he sold the weapon to a private party anonymously. Someone who could commit this kind of cold-blooded killing is probably a good liar.

- Jim

Hmmmmm.....Just Glock .40 cal???? No HK, Sig, etc? I guess I'm just not that well-versed with ballistics, and I admit that - anyone care to explain how you can tell that a particular casing came from a Glock, Sig, etc...? Each brand/model leaves a slightly different mark on the primer from the firing pin, etc? Educate me please. Or is this a case of shoddy journalism?

From the article:

"OSBI agents went to gun dealers and pawnshops to create a list of .40-caliber Glock owners."

WELEETKA — Authorities working to narrow their leads in the June 8 shooting deaths of two girls used old-fashioned legwork to come up with a list of area gun owners with .40-caliber pistols, one of two weapons used in the slayings.

Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation agents knew the caliber of the guns used in the killings, so they merely checked with area gun dealers and pawnshops to determine who had bought or recently pawned .40-caliber Glocks."

Yes. Glock strikers leave a unique mark.

- Jim