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I've started to look harder into this subject a couple of months ago without any good explanation or tests that can confirm or deny the reason why one would be better than the other on human targets. Rifles are different, due to the high power they have, it doesn't matter what type of bullet you use, it most likely would go through. I understand that it is hard to know exactly what happens when a bullet from a handgun goes though a human body without having a real human to test it on, unless we ask forensic examiners. Also, every caliber and barrel lenght plays a game on ballistics. But I just want to know what you guys carry for personal protection and the idea or reason behind it. Me, I started to carry JHP's on my 45's, but not too sure it is the right ammo if I want to penetrate everything that will be on the way before main internal organs get damaged. With FMJ you know you will penetrate everything as long as your are hitting your target, and the velocity of the bullet when it comes out the other end should not have much energy to hurt another human body you do not intend to and the likleyhood that an inocent bystander will be on that bullet's path is very slim. I've seen tests of JHP's but only on jellatin and other objects which do not resemble what a human body is made of (flesh,muscle,bones). So what is your theory or opinions on this subject? Or if you know of a website with forensic facts/evidence, books etc. that would be greatley appreciate it. Thanks for your comments .

I use JHP to prevent over penetration because I only want to hit the intended target.

I'm sure that many have read through this before, but it consists of excerpts taken from a thread by a medical examiner from Georgia. It is very, very long - but this version of it is just his responses.

http://www.mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I use JHP's to prevent overpenetration and to deliver maximum impact/stopping power. This link might help you:
http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcemen ... flash.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

KFP wrote:I'm sure that many have read through this before, but it consists of excerpts taken from a thread by a medical examiner from Georgia. It is very, very long - but this version of it is just his responses.

http://www.mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is also completely flawed as an analytical tool. It may be enjoyable reading of anecdotal accounts but this is hardly compelling evidence of anything measurable.

People have been killed by through and through shots. Doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

JHPs also make a bigger hole in the BG increasing the rapidity of bleed out. They also dump more of the bullets energy into the BG. Basically guns seem to stop BGs by one of three methods: psychological, bleed out or shutting down the central nervous system. JHP vs FMJ probably doesn't increase psychological stops but who knows. JHPs increase bleed out stop by creating a bigger hole and because with a larger diameter bullet going through there is more likelyhood of hitting an organ or artery that will bleed out faster. The bigger hole may also increase the chance of hitting important nerves although the greater penetration of an FMJ might increase the chance of hitting the spinal cord.

You were worried about lack of penetration with a JHP vs a FMJ. Generally with any of today's top JHPs in 9mm up, you will get sufficient penetration to reach vital organs. Of course nothing is guaranteed.

You might want to google Evan Marshall and look at his website and books. If you google stopping power, you should hit a bunch of sites that will give you good information.

JHP for self defense. It's proven to do more damage. Isn't that what you want to happen? More damage to stop the threat???
Or is this an attempt to justify not spending the money on JHP defense ammo? I'm a cheapskate, but when it comes to carry ammo, I'll splurge for the good stuff.

Here's the FBI's Report on Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness. It doesn't directly address the FMJ / JHP question, but it does explain what bullets can and can't do, and what factors make some better stoppers than others.

The follow on to this was a set of test protocols to determine how different cartridges measure up to the criteria the FBI arrived at. The results of this testing were shared with the nation's law enforcement agencies, and virtually every one outside of the military (I don't know of any exceptions) carries JHP ammo today.

These are the guys that are most likely to need effective stopping power and put their lives on the line with this equipment every day. I don't think you'd be poorly served by following their example.

mr.72 wrote:

KFP wrote:I'm sure that many have read through this before, but it consists of excerpts taken from a thread by a medical examiner from Georgia. It is very, very long - but this version of it is just his responses.

http://www.mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is also completely flawed as an analytical tool. It may be enjoyable reading of anecdotal accounts but this is hardly compelling evidence of anything measurable.

I'll agree that there is virtually no quantitive evidence from the article, but I do think the qualitative value of the article is worth the reading. Someone on the table is better than attempting to just use ballistic gelatin in my opinion. There are too many other variables in the real world for such a simple measure to address. The box of truth site attempts to add some more quantitative measures for various shooting situations, if you're interested in checking those out as well.

I personally carry JHP, but there is plenty of evidence that lots of clothing can render them less lethal than FMJ in certain situations. The Utah CFP class actually addresses this issue, essentially recommending FMJ for the winter months. I do have some of Federal's expanding FMJ rounds and would feel comfortable with them, but choose to go with 200 grain +P Gold Dots on a daily basis.

stroo wrote:You might want to google Evan Marshall and look at his website and books. If you google stopping power, you should hit a bunch of sites that will give you good information.

+1 on Evan P Marshall. I have his book on "Handgun Stopping Power" and it is very good and he covers each caliber and along with illustrations from shootings on the street.

-geo

KFP wrote:I'm sure that many have read through this before, but it consists of excerpts taken from a thread by a medical examiner from Georgia. It is very, very long - but this version of it is just his responses.

http://www.mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is what I was looking for, to hear it from somebody that has actually done this. Perty good reading, thanks .

I do sometimes carry 230gr FMJ's in my XDC 45 ACP...

I would never ever carry FMJ's in anything smaller than a 45...

Whew! That's a looooong piece on the mouseguns web page! Seems like I started reading it once before. And today is another day I do not have time for it all. Some good stuff there though.

I'm hearing (from Tom Gresham on Guntalk anyway) that some of the premier training schools like Thunder Ranch and Gunsite have switched to using FMJ for personal protection. Nothing has been said as to why though. I've always heard the arguments for JHP that have been discussed here.

Keith

FMJ will almost always feed more reliably, especially in older designs that predate hollowpoints. If you have any concerns about reliable feeding, then go with FMJ, Pow'Rball from Cor-Bon, or one of the new projectiles that combine an FMJ profile with JHP expansion.

When a round/caliber has sufficient power to both penetrate and expand reliably, then go with HP; if expansion is questionable, then go for penetration. In low-power calibers, LRN rules.