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I thought this would be a good time to have a reminder of the safety rules...

Due to the recent damage to our building, all of our stock is secured upstairs in our safe. We are still selling to customers who come in and want to look at a specific gun or guns.

Today a man came in with his father. They were interested in maybe Glocks or Springfield XD's. One of our guys went upstairs and got 2 Glocks and 2 XD's. Our employee (we will call him Joey) placed the gun cases on the counter and opened them. The customer asked if the guns were unloaded and Joey told him "of course, they are new guns".

Joey then turned his back to get something from a shelf behind him (a gun mat I believe). While he was doing that, the customer picked up the Glock and pressed the trigger............BLAM a round shatter the glass case and imbedded into a second case.

The 4 cardinal rules are in existence for a reason.....to avoid these types of occurences. 2 of the major rules were broken, and 1 of our house rules were broken.

When the customer asked if the gun was loaded, Joey should not have answered as he did. In fact, Joey had no idea if the gun was loaded or not (post facto we know it WAS loaded). He should have taken that time to explain the safety rule to the customer.

Joey should also have cleared the weapon before he turned away from the customer and allowed the weapon out of his control.

I am still investigating how the loaded weapon was allowed into the gun case and put back into stock. There are some facts that are very odd here, and I cannot disclose until I complete my investigation.

The safety rules should ALWAYS be followed. Even if you KNOW the weapon is "unloaded".

Discussion encouraged.

Your story doesn't amaze me. If people can screw up they will. It seem to be a natural fact of mankind. What does amaze me is anyone and everyone is into investigating things these days. If a five year old brings a butter knife to school the school has to investigate, if there is wrongdoing at a business that business has to investigate. Everybody is into investigating these days, and if they get a chance to step up to a podium in front of a TV camera, WOW! look out were having an investigation here. And what's really amazing is none of these people have a license to investigate anything. A lot of these investigations are of course nothing more than a ploy to get in front of a TV camera.

one eyed fatman wrote:Your story doesn't amaze me. If people can screw up they will. It seem to be a natural fact of mankind. What does amaze me is anyone and everyone is into investigating things these days. If a five year old brings a butter knife to school the school has to investigate, if there is wrongdoing at a business that business has to investigate. Everybody is into investigating these days, and if they get a chance to step up to a podium in front of a TV camera, WOW! look out were having an investigation here. And what's really amazing is none of these people have a license to investigate anything. A lot of these investigations are of course nothing more than a ploy to get in front of a TV camera.

Umm, I am not going on TV, and do you think we should just not worry about how a loaded weapon got stored in a new box?

And FWIW, no license is required for someone in a company to investigate its own loss, employee misconduct or anything else related to the company.

Txinvestigator, I couldn't agree with you more about investigating how a loaded gun wound up in a "new" box. Lucky Joey or one of the customers didn't get shot.

Personally, I'd investigate it with a capital "I"!

I fully agree, you should know why the firearm was loaded, and "joey" needs to be reminded (in a memorable way) to never hand a semi-auto to anyone.. unless the magazine has been removed AND the weapon is at slide lock.

Thank you for sharing this.

Flint.

flintknapper wrote:Personally, I'd investigate it with a capital "I"!

I fully agree, you should know why the firearm was loaded, and "joey" needs to be reminded (in a memorable way) to never hand a semi-auto to anyone.. unless the magazine has been removed AND the weapon is at slide lock.

Thank you for sharing this.

Flint.

Thanks

To be fair, Joey did not hand the gun to the customer; he opened the box and turned away. The customer picked it up and......................

txinvestigator wrote:

flintknapper wrote:Personally, I'd investigate it with a capital "I"!

I fully agree, you should know why the firearm was loaded, and "joey" needs to be reminded (in a memorable way) to never hand a semi-auto to anyone.. unless the magazine has been removed AND the weapon is at slide lock.

Thank you for sharing this.

Flint.

Thanks

To be fair, Joey did not hand the gun to the customer; he opened the box and turned away. The customer picked it up and......................

Yup,

That's what I'm saying the problem was. Nobody gets a weapon that hasn't been checked, and left with the action open.

It's an intresting puzzle, I hope you are able to find the where, when, and how.

txinvestigator wrote:

one eyed fatman wrote:Your story doesn't amaze me. If people can screw up they will. It seem to be a natural fact of mankind. What does amaze me is anyone and everyone is into investigating things these days. If a five year old brings a butter knife to school the school has to investigate, if there is wrongdoing at a business that business has to investigate. Everybody is into investigating these days, and if they get a chance to step up to a podium in front of a TV camera, WOW! look out were having an investigation here. And what's really amazing is none of these people have a license to investigate anything. A lot of these investigations are of course nothing more than a ploy to get in front of a TV camera.

Umm, I am not going on TV, and do you think we should just not worry about how a loaded weapon got stored in a new box?

And FWIW, no license is required for someone in a company to investigate its own loss, employee misconduct or anything else related to the company.

I'm not attacking you. My observation comes from what I have seen on TV. Basically we can investigate all we want but the fact is it already happened and an investigation in most cases isn't going to prove anything more than the fact that it happened. You can try and use that investigation to try and keep it from happening again but that won't keep people from doing what they are good at. Screwing up. Put all the safety features you want into a car and someone will still get killed in an accident.

one eyed fatman wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:

one eyed fatman wrote:Your story doesn't amaze me. If people can screw up they will. It seem to be a natural fact of mankind. What does amaze me is anyone and everyone is into investigating things these days. If a five year old brings a butter knife to school the school has to investigate, if there is wrongdoing at a business that business has to investigate. Everybody is into investigating these days, and if they get a chance to step up to a podium in front of a TV camera, WOW! look out were having an investigation here. And what's really amazing is none of these people have a license to investigate anything. A lot of these investigations are of course nothing more than a ploy to get in front of a TV camera.

Umm, I am not going on TV, and do you think we should just not worry about how a loaded weapon got stored in a new box?

And FWIW, no license is required for someone in a company to investigate its own loss, employee misconduct or anything else related to the company.

I'm not attacking you. My observation comes from what I have seen on TV. Basically we can investigate all we want but the fact is it already happened and an investigation in most cases isn't going to prove anything more than the fact that it happened. You can try and use that investigation to try and keep it from happening again but that won't keep people from doing what they are good at. Screwing up. Put all the safety features you want into a car and someone will still get killed in an accident.

No offense taken...

So again I ask you, should we NOT try to discover how it happened?

So again I ask you, should we NOT try to discover how it happened?

Sure why not. But while your spending time investigating that someone else will figure out a new way to screw up.

"Investigating," i.e. finding out how a round got into the pistol in question is just good business... you can't afford many NDs when you sell guns.

As to a license to investigate an incident in your own business? Utter balderdash... a business can investigate anything they want to... to say you can't is nothing but jailhouse lawyer advice.

For one I'm glad to see you rooting the problem out.

FWIW

Chuck

Umm, I am not going on TV, and do you think we should just not worry about how a loaded weapon got stored in a new box?

And FWIW, no license is required for someone in a company to investigate its own loss, employee misconduct or anything else related to the company.[/quote]

A little story...

I went to my favorite storefront, to go drool during my lunch break...

And I wanted to take a look at a new Springfield GI they got in the other day...

The new sales guy (we'll call him Joey too) went to get it, brought it to the counter and proceeded to hand it to me, un-checked or cleared...

I stood there with my arms folded, making no attempt to take it from him as he offered it...He looked at me, I looked at him...nothing...

(Oh! then he cleared it, left it locked back, put it down on the mat...) where I proceeded to take posession of it, checked it again myself, then proceeded to drool...

I reversed the procedure, and concluded my drool session...

Sometimes we (I) forget, and we hope nothing bad happens, but those rules sure do come back to the forefront of our memory don't they...

I think an investigation in an instince like this is an absolute must. The investigation should not be simply to place blame (in this case we know were part of it goes already) but to look a company procedures, training, or other factors that could be changed or reinforced to prevent an occurance from happening again. To say that humans will only find another was to screw up and we should not investigate is foolish. Of course I do believe some "investigations" that go on are for the wrong reasons or are simply for PR purposes, but that does not negate the NEED for a REAL investigation, post incident review, after action review or what ever name you care to give to it.

Sounds like "Joey" has some cousins out there eh ?

I always let the store employee "show clear" on any firearm I am looing at. If they do not, I ask them to.