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With the rapid expansion of CHL holders over recent months, I think we are going to experience a change or shift in the thinking of LEO towards CHL holders. Not necessarily in a negative way, but perhaps a shift down on the totem pole, if you will.

With tens of thousands of new CHL'ers on the streets in Texas, LEO will encounter them more often. Frankly speaking, they will not be special or unique anymore. I've read many stories, even some on this forum about the "wink and a nod" treatment CHL holders often get instead of a written citation for a minor traffic violation. In the future, there will be a much larger percentage of the population that LEO encounters that do have a CHL, and since we are required to produce the CHL when showing ID, the LEO will surely know this fact about each and every one of them. How could they let a CHL holder "off the hook" then? There might be so many that it would affect the department's revenue. If I decide to let one in twenty go, no big deal. If I let eight in twenty go, big problem!

The perception of "certified good guy" will likely go as well as it gets too diluted to mean anything.

This is not entirely a bad thing, as I would rather see an armed population than get out of a speeding ticket for myself. It's just a thought I had while driving home tonight, so I thought I'd throw it up here for discussion. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

CHL holders in Texas will never reach numbers large enough to warrant any real attention by LEO (good or bad).

We are a very small percentage of the population. Though our numbers are growing....the percentage of CHL's that have contact with LEO in any given year will remain small.

I am one of those people who have been "let go" all three times I have been stopped (12 yrs. with CHL), but I do NOT expect that to happen.... and don't attribute it to having a CHL (though it may have been a factor).

. .

CHLSteve wrote: ...With tens of thousands of new CHL'ers on the streets in Texas...

Is this automatically a good thing? A Texas CHL is an earned priviledge, it is not a right.

I'm not saying CHL = no ticket, and I don't think any of you are accusing me of it either. In fact, I got a ticket shortly after getting my CHL, and I normally don't get them! (That officer was a real jerk BTW)

My friend's wife has to reschedule her missed CHL course. They are booked SOLID for over a month, and the classes they do have openings in are for just one or two people. There is definitely a huge rush on getting CHL right now. The number is growing by leaps and bounds right now, and LEO will have more frequent contact with CHL holders.

I don't think you have anything to worry about. First, as pointed out, even if the CHL numebrs double, it is still not a really significant portion of the public. And that is without taking into account how many will actually meet the police.

I think, if anything, the numbers of CHL's meeting the police growing is a good thing. One of the major problems in police work is remembering that there are good people out there who are not cops. Having a CHL reminds the cops of this very subtly. But it does work to remind cops of this. It has been well documented as a problem for cops that after a certain time period (usually the first couple years), they tend to start seeing the world as a mixture of cops and bad guys. If you are not a cop, you are bad. This comes about because the rookies tend to get assigned to the worst neighborhoods and all they get to deal with are the bad people. The few good people they get to deal with are in a bad situation. Off duty they tend to hang out with other cops. So, it is easy for some cops to develop the cops versus everyone attitudes.

We fight it and try our best to get new cops to develop hobbies and hang around with non-cops when off duty. This keeps them in the real world where there are good guys, bad guys, and the biggest majority (including most cops) are somewhere in between. It helps them remember that the average person is a good person, even if he just made a mistake and did something wrong. It also helps them keep in touch with how the rest of the community sees the crime problem and what makes a bad person bad. When they come up on a CHL, there is a gentle reminder that this is a good person who just made some minor mistake. If they are not yet in the us versus them attitude, this helps them realize that not everyone needs to get a ticket or go to jail. So, I figure the more cops get this quiet reminder, the better they are. After all, in real life, 90% of the people are good people.

I think this quiet reminder is also why so many cops do let CHL's off with minor violations. It is not a hard and fast rule, but it is a reminder that even a good person can make a minor mistake. And for those of us who like guns, it gives us something to talk about with you to be even more person like. I think I am more likely to be easier with you fi I see you as a person, and you are more likely to listen to my wanring and learn from it if you see me as a person and friend, instead of a nameless authority figure.

Oh, well. A couple of comments here.

Steve, I'm about to pick on your post, not you. Hope you understand that.

CHLSteve wrote:With tens of thousands of new CHL'ers on the streets in Texas, LEO will encounter them more often. Frankly speaking, they will not be special or unique anymore.

Let's look at some numbers. As some of you have surmised, I like stats.

As of 12/31/2007, DPS claimed 288,909 active license holders and 1,639 instructors. When Charles Cotton attended a meeting with DPS a few months ago, they stated approximately 300,000 license holders. If we assume even 320,000 CHLers as of 12/31/2008, that's an increase of only 9.7% over the 2007 figures.

Now, I just pulled 320,000 out of my hat, but I've seen no reason to believe the number exceeds that. My bet is that when we see the 2008 year-end report, the number will be close, if not lower.

Plus, take into account that a change of 30,000--or even 100,000--in CHL count is pretty miniscule compared to the overall population. The Texas State Demographer's estimates of the 2007 population over the age of 21 was 16.4 million; they haven't released a 2008 estimate yet. So adding even a whopping 100K additional CHLers only means less than a 0.61% percent increase in the over-21 population at large.

If we have 320,000 CHL holders, that represents 1.95% of the Texas population age 21 or older. If we can achieve 500,000 CHLers, we'll still represent less than 3% of the over-21 population. If you include younger drivers, that's 1.8% to 2.7%. All things being equal, that means less than 2 or 3 out of 100 drivers stopped by a LEO will be CHL.

And I'd argue that we are a generally more law-abiding bunch than the population at large. Certainly the stats regarding serious crimes support this...by a huge factor. And we have about 4,000 registered members on this Forum, and very few (what, maybe fewer than 20? Fewer than 10?) have mentioned being asked for identification by a LEO with any frequency after they received their plastic.

If we assume our odds of being pulled over on a traffic stop are one-quarter, or less, than the general population's (so one in every 200 stops), we rapidly start to become statistically insignificant.

Group hug!

CHLSteve wrote:The perception of "certified good guy" will likely go as well as it gets too diluted to mean anything.

I don't see that one, either. Unless the certification requirements for licensing change, how can there be any dilution? You either pass the background checks and meet the criteria or you don't.

Additional numbers of CHL holders don't change this. Volume does not equate relaxing standards. If anything, possibly the opposite. I think increased demand might also increase scrutiny into the operations of those counties whose record keeping has been more lax than, shall we say, most others.

I firmly believe any view of CHL plastic as some sort of "get out of jail free" Monopoly card is sorely misplaced and misinformed. I also believe any such attitude damages us as a group.

There is no "wink-and-nod" conspiracy between LEOs and CHL holders. Any inference otherwise is, I believe, naive.

We are individual citizens who have been licensed to carry a concealed handgun. That's it. That's the extent of our licensure.

srothstein, great post. I take it you are in law enforcement?

There is no "wink-and-nod" conspiracy between LEOs and CHL holders. Any inference otherwise is, I believe, naive.

I don't know if it's naive or not, I'm just posting based on what I've read on this very site, and what people talked about during my CHL course. For me personally, I have not seen this to be the case as I already mentioned.

Those are some good stats, but I think we'll find your estimate to be low, and that there will be a sharp rise in the number of applicants for the end of 2008, going into 2009. This is just me pulling thoughts out of thin air though. We'll see.

Guys, please understand that I'm not complaining, angry, worried, or anything at all really. I only posted because I was interested in what the possibility of an increase in CHL holders might mean for us. Just as a curiosity, nothing more. :)

flintknapper wrote:I am one of those people who have been "let go" all three times I have been stopped (12 yrs. with CHL), but I do NOT expect that to happen.... and don't attribute it to having a CHL (though it may have been a factor).

I've been stopped for traffic violations 3 times while I had my CHL. 2 of those times I was given warnings (once for a busted tail light, and once for running a red light). I did get a ticket for speeding on the third, maybe because this stop was not in my hometown.

CHLSteve wrote:Those are some good stats, but I think we'll find your estimate to be low, and that there will be a sharp rise in the number of applicants for the end of 2008...

Okay. So how's this:

I'll bet you $100.00, even up, that the final DPS numbers for 2008 show 320,000 or fewer CHL licensees.

Is it a deal? Will you shake my hand on it?

srothstein wrote:I don't think you have anything to worry about. First, as pointed out, even if the CHL numebrs double, it is still not a really significant portion of the public. And that is without taking into account how many will actually meet the police.

I think, if anything, the numbers of CHL's meeting the police growing is a good thing. One of the major problems in police work is remembering that there are good people out there who are not cops. Having a CHL reminds the cops of this very subtly. But it does work to remind cops of this. It has been well documented as a problem for cops that after a certain time period (usually the first couple years), they tend to start seeing the world as a mixture of cops and bad guys. If you are not a cop, you are bad. This comes about because the rookies tend to get assigned to the worst neighborhoods and all they get to deal with are the bad people. The few good people they get to deal with are in a bad situation. Off duty they tend to hang out with other cops. So, it is easy for some cops to develop the cops versus everyone attitudes.

We fight it and try our best to get new cops to develop hobbies and hang around with non-cops when off duty. This keeps them in the real world where there are good guys, bad guys, and the biggest majority (including most cops) are somewhere in between. It helps them remember that the average person is a good person, even if he just made a mistake and did something wrong. It also helps them keep in touch with how the rest of the community sees the crime problem and what makes a bad person bad. When they come up on a CHL, there is a gentle reminder that this is a good person who just made some minor mistake. If they are not yet in the us versus them attitude, this helps them realize that not everyone needs to get a ticket or go to jail. So, I figure the more cops get this quiet reminder, the better they are. After all, in real life, 90% of the people are good people.

I think this quiet reminder is also why so many cops do let CHL's off with minor violations. It is not a hard and fast rule, but it is a reminder that even a good person can make a minor mistake. And for those of us who like guns, it gives us something to talk about with you to be even more person like. I think I am more likely to be easier with you fi I see you as a person, and you are more likely to listen to my wanring and learn from it if you see me as a person and friend, instead of a nameless authority figure.

Excellent post (again).

Thank you for sharing your insights. It really helped me to understand the feelings some LEO may develop after being in service for a period of time.

Locksmith wrote: For example recently an ex "Utah Police Officer" who moved to Texas, suddenly changed and began robbing, burglary, killing random drivers on the highway, then committed suicide while in a standoff situation with police. Everyone including myself would like to believe that CHL holders are across the board good people who will always be good people, but there is just no way to know what will change somebody's thinking or when.

That Utah officer didn't just suddenly have issues and came out firing. He was fired from the Utah state police and was none to have some addiction problems with prescription drugs. His troubles started long before and he had been in trouble while in Utah.

According to a report by the Utah Peace Officer Standards and Training investigations bureau, Mr. Smith's troubles began Jan. 10 when he drove his squad car to a liquor store in a Salt Lake City suburb and bought two pints of liquor. He then drove to a theater and drank a pint.

He then drove to a park, drank, and drove home, the report says. He called for help from a leader at his Mormon church. When the man arrived, Mr. Smith placed a pistol to his own chin and threatened to kill himself.

The church leader grabbed the gun after Mr. Smith put it on the car's dashboard. He called 911, and when police arrived, they took him from a bed in his home where he had passed out to a hospital for treatment and a psychological evaluation, according to the report.

"Smith also admitted, in the past, he had stolen and used Demerol and one Ambien tablet from his father-in-law's dental office," the report says. "Smith's abuse of alcohol and prescription medications started after an on-duty traffic accident."

Here, he has a documented case of attempted suicide / and drug abuse. I believe if he were a Texas CHL holder he would have had his plastic taken away from him. The point is that statistically we are better behaved than even the LEOs, and that the law as it is written will prevent CHLs from legally carrying if we show the same downward spiralling signs. Because of this we are statistically less likely to snap than the officer who may be disarming us.

flintknapper wrote:CHL holders in Texas will never reach numbers large enough to warrant any real attention by LEO (good or bad).

We are a very small percentage of the population. Though our numbers are growing....the percentage of CHL's that have contact with LEO in any given year will remain small.

I am one of those people who have been "let go" all three times I have been stopped (12 yrs. with CHL), but I do NOT expect that to happen.... and don't attribute it to having a CHL (though it may have been a factor).

I am on the other end of this stick. Stopped twice since CHL & got a ticket both times. Was not disarmed. Both were cordial, asked where it was when I presented DL & CHL & told that I was armed.
One was posted on the board here. I had just been diagnosed w/ my cancer & was going to San Antonio to tell my son. I just did not want to tell him over the phone.
I had the cruse set at 74 & topped a little hill & entered a 60mph spot going by Dime Box Texas.
As always he asked where I was going & listened while writing.
Never said anything about hope it turns out OK, get better ...
Did tell me to have a good day & please slow down.

srothstein wrote: We fight it and try our best to get new cops to develop hobbies and hang around with non-cops when off duty.

How do you do this?