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Is there a website to tell if a business is 51%?
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:49 pm
by DrinkRaiderade
Quick question, does TABC keep an updated online list of 51% establishments?
Re: Is there a website to tell if a business is 51%?
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:57 pm
by USA1
DrinkRaiderade wrote:Quick question, does TABC keep an updated online list of 51% establishments?
plan to do alot of drinkin
Re: Is there a website to tell if a business is 51%?
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:06 pm
by DrinkRaiderade
No, but I do go to a lot of restaurants here in Dallas that serve alcohol and I want to make sure I don't carry there (or just avoid it all together) if it is 51%.
Re: Is there a website to tell if a business is 51%?
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:08 pm
by CWOOD
DrinkRaiderade wrote:Quick question, does TABC keep an updated online list of 51% establishments?
NO.
You can, however, call the local TABC office and ask them, if you have time to do that during regular business hours before your visit. If it is an inpromptu visit to an establishment there are a couple of rules of thumb. If it looks like a bar, it probably is off limits. If they have regular food service and menus it probably has a food and beverage permit from TABC which means that it is not a 51% establishment.
You can also go( or talk someone else into going) to the license inside, which should be on display to the publice and look in the middle of the license for a phrase as follows:
SIGN=BLUE means that it is not 51%
SIGN=RED means that it IS a 51% location.
Act accordingly.
Now, of course, this will change on September 1, 2009, as a new law going into effect says that it will be a defense to prosecution if the business did not have a proper 51% sign at all entrances. Doesn't mean that you might not be arrested but you will have a defense to prosectuion that you did not recieve proper notice that the place was a 51% location.
Hope this helps a bit.
Re: Is there a website to tell if a business is 51%?
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:12 pm
by boomerang
No.
You can do a search on the TABC website for licensed premises. However, it doesn't indicate "if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code."
AFAIK, if they have a food and beverage license they get less than half their income from alcohol but the lack of FB doesn't mean anything. On the other hand, if they don't have a license for on premises consumption, I figure they can't be 51% as determined by TABC.
I'm sure Steve will drop in shortly and correct my mistakes.
Re: Is there a website to tell if a business is 51%?
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:32 pm
by The Annoyed Man
Governor Perry has HB 2664 on his desk waiting for signature. This bill amends the law to read:
§ 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER.
...
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the
license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or
license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic
Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its
income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
...
(k) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1)
that the actor was not given effective notice under Section
411.204, Government Code.
§ 411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
(a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28,
32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent
or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code,
shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises
a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).
...
(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must
give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a
person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the
premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block
letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the
number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height.
The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible
to the public.
(d) A business that has a permit or license issued under the
Alcoholic Beverage Code and that is not required to display a sign
under this section may be required to display a sign under Section
11.041 or 61.11, Alcoholic Beverage Code.
(e) This section does not apply to a business that has a food
and beverage certificate issued under the Alcoholic Beverage Code.
I take that to mean that, once Perry signs it into law, you'll no longer need to worry about whether you've accidentally entered a 51% establishment while armed. The establishment will be required to display the sign conspicuously in a manner clearly visible to the public; and if they don't, then you have a defense to prosecution.
Re: Is there a website to tell if a business is 51%?
Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:24 am
by dicion
TAM:
You forgot to highlight the most important part of that statute
(a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28,
32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent
or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code,
shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises
a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).
It doesn't just specify that it has to be conspicuous, it specifies exactly WHERE. And that it has to be posted at EACH entrance. I read this to mean that if it's posted at one or more entrances, but not EACH entrance, you have legal ground to stand on in court that you were not given 'effective notice'
It also means that a sign simply placed Above the Bar doesn't cut it.
Re: Is there a website to tell if a business is 51%?
Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:03 am
by pedalman
There is another resource, though it is not an official information source:
http://www.texas3006.com/
Re: Is there a website to tell if a business is 51%?
Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:18 pm
by The Annoyed Man
dicion wrote:TAM:
You forgot to highlight the most important part of that statute
(a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28,
32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent
or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code,
shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises
a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).
It doesn't just specify that it has to be conspicuous, it specifies exactly WHERE. And that it has to be posted at EACH entrance. I read this to mean that if it's posted at one or more entrances, but not EACH entrance, you have legal ground to stand on in court that you were not given 'effective notice'
It also means that a sign simply placed Above the Bar doesn't cut it.
Yeah, I knew I had left something out, but I was bleary eyed and couldn't put it together... ...and no, there was no alcohol involved!
Re: Is there a website to tell if a business is 51%?
Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:22 pm
by CWOOD
JUST TO REINFORCE THE THOUGHT...
A 'Defense to Prosecution' means AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN ARRESTED, and AFTER YOU GET TO TRIAL, you can use the lack of proper notification as a DEFENSE in your court case.
It is not a home free card, it is not permission to carry in a 51% location. It is not even an ABSOLUTE defense.
I realize that most of us here understand this but for those who might not have had the time to research this, I just want to provide some clarity so that them may avoid unanticipated difficulties.
Be careful out there.
Re: Is there a website to tell if a business is 51%?
Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:09 pm
by dicion
Right. It's one of those 'you'll take the ride' circumstances. I doubt a DA would prosecute though, especially if you got a good lawyer, and didn't say anything stupid.
Then again, if you are concealing properly, you should have nothing to worry about, because noone should see the weapon. If you DO have to defend yourself in one of these locations, you're taking the ride anyways.
Thats my opinion of the scenario. Not that I plan on going into any bars concealing, mind you.
Re: Is there a website to tell if a business is 51%?
Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:23 pm
by boomerang
Even after 9/1/2009, concealed still means concealed.
Re: Is there a website to tell if a business is 51%?
Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:41 pm
by The Annoyed Man
CWOOD wrote:JUST TO REINFORCE THE THOUGHT...
A 'Defense to Prosecution' means AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN ARRESTED, and AFTER YOU GET TO TRIAL, you can use the lack of proper notification as a DEFENSE in your court case.
It is not a home free card, it is not permission to carry in a 51% location. It is not even an ABSOLUTE defense.
I realize that most of us here understand this but for those who might not have had the time to research this, I just want to provide some clarity so that them may avoid unanticipated difficulties.
Be careful out there.
Absolutely, and I didn't mean to be cavalier about it. You're still going to have legal bills; you're just not going to go to prison for it if the signs were non-compliant with regard to placement and visibility. A conscientious CHL holder still has a responsibility to vacate the premises immediately upon learning that he/she is in violation of the 51% requirements. You're not likely to get away with "defense to prosecution" if it can be demonstrated that you hung around, armed, long after discovering the 51% sign.
Re: Is there a website to tell if a business is 51%?
Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:49 am
by srothstein
Everything said so far appears to be correct to me. The sign posted information for after Sep. 1 is great news to me. I think it is only fair. Look for some changes to the TABC rules to enforce this also.
The reason I tell everyone to look for the FB license is that the law says they can only get that certificate if they get 51% of their income from food. Since 51% from food prohibits 51% from alcohol, it means you can carry there. to find these, you just need to check the public records on the TABC web site, and to make that easy, here is a link to the database for all licensees in Texas:
http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/PublicInquiry/Roster.aspx
You have to enter a county but can enter more than one. You can restrict it to a city in a county. You then need to select a type of premise, in most cases we look for retailers. it is not really the easiest system to use as you go back and forth through the options, but it is handy.
As was pointed out, not having an FB means nothing. The law does not require a restaurant to get an FB, just makes it optional and provides a few small inducements (I am sure they counted more when it was first passed, but inflation eats away at the finances involved).
Re: Is there a website to tell if a business is 51%?
Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:24 pm
by dicion
CWOOD wrote:
A 'Defense to Prosecution' means AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN ARRESTED, and AFTER YOU GET TO TRIAL, you can use the lack of proper notification as a DEFENSE in your court case.
This, I believe to be incorrect. I do not believe a trial is guaranteed at all.
'Defense to prosecution' can mean that upon reviewing the case, the DA can decide NOT to prosecute, based on the fact of this, and the obvious defense.
I would hope that most DAs would do this,
when it is abundantly clear that the business did not meet the sign requirements, rather then waste the taxpayer's money and time on a full trial.
Doesn't guarantee they won't though.